Karina Inkster

You're listening to the No ******** Vegan Podcast, episode 12. Renowned dietitian Vesanto Melina joins us today to discuss mistakes vegans make with their diets, why exactly vitamin B12 is important and what it does in our bodies, and so much more. Welcome to the No ******** Vegan Podcast, myth-busting and evidence-based advice to help you kick **** with your health and fitness on a vegan diet. Here's your host, Rena Ingster. Hey there, and welcome to another episode of the No ******** Vegan podcast. I am very excited to share with you an interview with Vesanto Melina. She's been a registered dietitian for 53 years, and she's the lead author of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics position paper on vegetarian and vegan diets. This is the most read position paper of the entire academy, And it's referenced by pretty much all vegetarians and vegans when we need to show health professionals or family members or friends a research-backed statement about vegan diets from the world's largest organization that represents food and nutritional professionals. We talk about the type of research that went into creating the position paper, how it's evolved over the years, and its most recent addition. Vesanto is an internationally known speaker, co-author of award-winning books that are classics in plant-based nutrition, a consultant for people who want to fine-tune their vegan diets, and an instructor for a three-part nutrition series through the Living Light Culinary Arts Institute in California. When it comes to Vesanto's favorite vegan dishes, there are three in particular that she makes in large batches on a regular basis. And the recipes are all featured in her books, which we link to in our show notes. So there's a red lentil curry that you can make in less than half an hour. There's a salad with kale, romaine, and two types of cabbage. And there's a salad dressing to go with that called liquid gold dressing. And the name isn't just for the color, but also for its nutritional wealth. So 3 tablespoons of that dressing gives you half of your daily B12 and your whole day's supply of omega-3 fatty acids. So we've got two of these three recipes in full for you at our show notes. You can access those at nobullshitvegan.com slash 012. So you're just going to have to go there and find out which ones we have for you. In addition to the position paper, we discuss myths around vitamin B12, some mistakes vegans commonly make with their diets, how the vegan movement is taking hold around the world, and much more. Let's get to the interview. All right, Vesanto, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Vesanto Melina

Thank you, Karina. I'm delighted to.

Karina Inkster

Fellow Vancouverite, which I actually didn't know until I looked up your website. I'm like, oh, you're in the same city as me.

Vesanto Melina

And this is sometimes called Veg Couver now. People in Winnipeg that I know call it Veg Couver.

Karina Inkster

Honestly, it's kind of odd that I haven't heard it called that yet, but it totally makes sense.

Vesanto Melina

It does, doesn't it? I was looking at that Happy Cow website the other day, and I think there were, if you put, just clicked, Vancouver and had a radius of 10 miles. There were 260 different plant-based food outlets that came out. That included stores like Choices and that kind of thing too. And then if you just got down to vegan restaurants, you got 26.

Karina Inkster

That's pretty impressive. I mean, some places have zero, right?

Vesanto Melina

I know, that's right.

Karina Inkster

We're ahead of the game.

Vesanto Melina

But so many places have plant-based nutrition. Like in the last, I guess, year and a half, I've been in Granada, Spain, and this is all speaking at events that were very well attended. Reykjavik, Iceland, Montreal, 3 islands in Hawaii, in California quite a lot, and Vancouver and Montreal, I mean, even like in Reykjavik, they had to keep bringing in chairs and people were paying $40 for a one-hour talk.

Karina Inkster

That's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

I know, it's just really happening. So it's quite exciting.

Karina Inkster

Yeah, you know, it actually reminds me, I was speaking with someone on Skype who lives in Sweden and he said about veganism that it's not a trend anymore. It's now a shift and people are just making this shift everywhere. I thought that was a great way of putting it.

Vesanto Melina

Yes, wow.

Karina Inkster

Yeah, so it's happening everywhere.

Vesanto Melina

It is, it's so many different places. And I find sometimes that if people look at the news and they feel kind of discouraged about the world, In this perspective, I go around the world and feel really encouraged because there are so many people that are just voluntarily and independently, sometimes with a group or their family, making a change, making a shift for themselves. And they may not even have support around them, and they're still doing it anyway in all kinds of different places.

Karina Inkster

Right. That's a great way of looking at it. So speaking of all kinds of different places, you just got back from teaching in California, right?

Vesanto Melina

That's right. I was just teaching there last weekend. There's a school that started out as a raw food chef school when the raw trend was really high. So for 20 years ago, 10 years ago, there were a lot of people that wanted to go 100% raw and many people wanting to train as chefs or become a chef for their own personal reasons. So this school called the Living Light Culinary Institute started, became very popular, and now it's moved with the times and it's a vegan and raw chef school. You can still look and look it up at rawfoodchef.com and then look up my co-author Brenda Davis and I under the nutrition programs for that, nutrition courses. But it's been the most exciting thing for me. I love going down there and there are people from all over the world. I've had dieticians from Chile, people from Italy, from Paris, from Lyon in France, from New York. I had someone in the last class who was Miss New York. Oh, wow. And she was also a yoga instructor, just an amazing yoga teacher. She was on the cover of Asana magazine recently in the fall. But they're just all sorts of people that have just decided to do this and they want to do it really well and they want to provide wonderful, wonderful food. So it's quite exciting and it's fun to be in that kind of a climate, where people have come all that way because they just care about nutrition and making it so appealing.

Karina Inkster

For sure. Yeah, that's really cool. I mean, I kind of feel like because of this shift, because it's not a trend anymore, it actually means there are so many different kinds of people who are now attracted to this way of eating. That's right. There's so much diversity all over the world. It's pretty amazing.

Vesanto Melina

And then there's some people, like what I know is Dr. Neil Bernard, who's such a brilliant medical doctor and leader and with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. And he'll just eat real simple food. he likes can of chickpeas, open it up, and there's some good protein. So there's just a whole spectrum of how we can do this. My husband likes... making stir fries. And he will make really healthy ones and just love having all kinds of different vegetables every time and doing it different ways. And then some people like to do it in a very gourmet manner. So anyway, it's quite fun. And actually, when I first became vegetarian, which was in the late 70s, it was because of good food. It wasn't because of any reasons about the environment or avoiding cruelty to animals or even health at that time. My friends and I just decided we were going to try out this. And what we did was each cook one night a week, and we took turns. And this was in Vancouver. And over there were six of us. So six nights a week you got, we tried to outdo each other and make you get food. And each night you'd get this wonderful food and then you didn't have to cook the rest of the week except your night. Anyway, it was really a fun introduction I found.

Karina Inkster

That's really cool. That's a great way of doing it. So was there some event or some knowledge that you gained that then made you choose the vegan direction from there?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I was, I had taught at university and I had started that actually a long time ago, 1965. So I've been a dietitian for 53 years now. I think it was, yeah. and 52 and a half years, I started teaching nutrition at UBC. So I've seen this tremendous evolution. So in the late 70s, I became vegetarian and I actually spent time in India, four years in India, where they have excellent cuisine, just amazing cuisine. So I learned about that and the nutrition and health side of it actually followed that. I came back from India and realized the other dietitians I knew hadn't really been trained about plant-based nutrition. And so I started doing classes in continuing education at UBC or little workshops for dietitians and realized quickly and then had publishers that wanted to do a book with them that realized that people needed to know how to do it well. So that's been our pivotal point, really, my co-author Brenda Davis and myself, is wherever you are on the spectrum, moving towards plant-based, here's how to do it really, really well to be in excellent health. Because there are a few little tricks to learn, as with any healthy eating pattern. And so once you learn those, then you're well on your way and you can learn it. as I say, in the gourmet style or the simple style or whatever style you want. And this is just sets, it sets your course, like pointing your sailboat in the right direction with the rudder pointed the right way. So sorry for vegan. You asked me that one. I went to someone who was spearheading a program called Canadians for the Ethical Treatment of farm animals. So she wasn't saying don't eat animals. She was saying, don't treat them well before slaughter, basically. And when I went to talk to her, I learned things, for example, that they would, you know, say a calf broke their leg while they were in transit, that they would put a chain around their leg and drag them off the truck, like so they'd bounce on the ground.

Karina Inkster

No, that's horrible.

Vesanto Melina

And there were hundreds of these happening in Canada because of course the conditions are very difficult in transit when they're in the trucks going to the slaughterhouse or going to different feeding areas. And also for pigs, the weather's really difficult. They can freeze to the side of the truck. I mean, just the things I learned were so horrifying to me. that I decided I didn't want to include animal products. I didn't like the de-beaking of chickens, which they do for eggs, you know, when they cut off their beak, but they don't have any anesthetic. They do that so they won't peck each other very badly while they're so crowded together. And even when they're what's called free range, they're indoors, They can't get out in Canada. There's a little corner area where they could get out the door, but hardly any of them ever find that door, even that little exit. And there isn't that much room out there. And they can't be outdoors all year in Canada. So anyway, I just found the whole situation made me feel like helping people who wanted to not eat animals at all, or any animal products, helping them just do it in really, really good health. And not say somebody should be in a certain place, because as you can see, I've been in many different places over the years, just gradually getting more and more plant-based, and realized that I was a decent person at these different times. just doing my best with my current understanding. And I really like to extend that to other people too.

Karina Inkster

Right. That's a really great point. Instead of, you know, finger pointing or saying you're not doing it perfectly enough or anything, that's not doing our movement any sort of service really. That's right.

Vesanto Melina

And that is how many, many of us change. We're just kind of gradual. We go, oh, you know, my friend wants to eat this way so I could go to the restaurant with them. here's a really good variation on one of my favorite recipes that I can try. You know, they just gradually, oh, I found some new products. So I'm trying a new fruit or a new vegetable every week or every month. You know, it can be just delightful exploration and gets you healthier and gets you supporting the environment and gets you avoiding cruelty to animals.

Karina Inkster

If that's not a win-win situation, I don't know what is.

Vesanto Melina

That's true.

Karina Inkster

That's awesome. Well, I think our theme in our conversation is basically going to be exactly that. You know, helping people wherever they are right now to eat in a more plant-based way, or if they're already plant-based, to do it in a way that's going to hit all of those things. It's going to make them feel great, going to be delicious, and will help the environment and reduce cruelty to animals. So in your work, what are There are some, let's call them mistakes. I don't really like that word, but what are some things that people maybe could do better on a vegan diet?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I'll focus really on two things. Although there are a few. So we want to get the calcium right. We want to make sure we've got iron-containing foods. And these turn out to be quite doable. And We could spend more time on those. But the two that I'd like to focus on here, and by the way, we cover these in great detail in our books, Becoming Vegan, either the comprehensive edition, which is more for real nutrition enthusiasts and health professionals, or Becoming Vegan Express edition, which is about half the size, about 300 pages sort of thing. And it's for people that kind of want the condensed version. So it's called the express edition. So we just go over all the different things. Calcium, here's how you do it. And once people get the knack of it, and it's just a few pages on that, people will go, oh, okay, I can do it now. And it gives, sometimes, like if somebody has a child that they're bringing up as vegan, and they'll need to just know a few little tips, it'll clarify that. And then even their mother-in-law can go, oh, good, well, I think it's okay then.

Karina Inkster

Right, that makes sense.

Vesanto Melina

So the two that I'd like to focus on are, first of all, including a reliable source of vitamin B12 and also using legumes or beans, peas, lentils, soy foods, making sure you include those.

Karina Inkster

Okay, let's go over the B12 first. So we've talked with a few guests already about B12, but we haven't really covered all the different angles. And it seems to be a recurring theme that this is super important, especially for people who are 100% plant-based. So why is it important in the 1st place? That's something we haven't really covered yet is why do we need B12?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, B12 is all the B vitamins actually work in teamwork. They help us release energy from foods. They have quite a wide number of roles and they work as part of the team. B12 has a special function of also creating or helping to build the myelin sheath around nerves, which is a protective coating around nerves. So it can take a long time to run out of B12. We recycled that vitamin very, very well. There've even been people who didn't get any noticeable source for 20 years, and then they got into big trouble. in terms of their nervous system functioning, or by that time, malfunctioning. And it affected how they could move their feet, their foot would kind of flop, and they couldn't walk very well. they would have damage that affected their brain development by that point. So it's really serious that we definitely need this. So we need it to have the myelin sheath around nerves. And the other key point is it helps red blood cells divide. Blood cells get bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and then they split in half. That's how they how you get more. Like when they're old and worn, they'll destruct, then you have to get some more. So the way you get new ones is the red blood cell gets bigger, bigger, bigger when it's ready, like basically almost to have a baby, but what it does is divide itself in half. And so if you don't have vitamin B12 in adequate amounts, your blood cells will get bigger, bigger, bigger. but they don't divide properly and they can't do their job of carrying oxygen and getting rid of carbon dioxide. They just can't do that as well. So you get macrocytic anemia or megaloblastic anemia, megalo or macro meaning big, big cells. And people can look in the lab test and see your cells are really big, red blood cells, they're not normal size at all. And then You can detect that B12 can be a deficiency. There's other tests to do this. And at that time, people get really tired. Just the oxygen delivery system isn't working properly. The carbon dioxide ridding yourself system isn't working properly. and it has devastating effects. And B12 is absolutely essential to life. So there are other little effects like, well, they're not little, but they're not quite as crucial as those two, but gastrointestinal effects. And also something called homocysteine gets higher. This is a compound that could be toxic if it built up, but vitamin B12 helps us get rid of it. Now, homocysteine, if it gets into high amounts, it can raise our risk of heart disease drastically. So we just don't want, here we've got a diet that's wonderful in terms of reducing our risk of heart disease, but if you don't have B12, you negate that whole advantage that you've had.

Karina Inkster

Right, yep. So I mean, clearly it's crucial and clearly we have to make sure that we're getting enough at all stages of the life cycle. Now, before we started recording, we were chatting a little bit and you mentioned a really interesting concept, which is B12 isn't natural. That might be something that people say like, oh, it's not natural to take a pill. So what's the deal with that? What's some thinking of this?

Vesanto Melina

In the real cycle of nature, we actually get B12 from bacteria. It's only in animal products because of all the bacterial contamination that's in milk and in animal flesh and that's produced the B12 that's there. So when you're eating clean plant foods, you don't have a source of the B12. There was an interesting study when people were plant-based in India and then they moved to London. So when they were in India, they would have a little potty under their bed and they'd have something called night soil and they'd go and dump it outside the door on the areas where they were growing vegetables for their family. And there was bacteria from that, and that would just be a cycle of nature. It was a little bit more natural than when they moved to London, England, and they bought their produce from a market, and it had been grown and washed and was in really clean conditions. and they started to develop some B12 deficiencies. It's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah, they moved to a kind of cleaner environment. Now, we actually like to live in a clean environment, you know, and we want to have clean produce and the idea of having dirt and little bits of all this bacteria on it just isn't what we're welcoming into our lives now. So the option for plant-based world is to take a supplement or use a fortified food. And that supplement bacteria or what's in the fortified food that originates, B12 originates from bacteria, and then it's put in a supplement form. And it's the scrunchiest little amount. So you could have, for example, a multi multivitamin mineral supplement that had 25 micrograms. Microgram is a thousandth of a milligram, which is a thousandth of a gram. I mean, it's just teeny, teeny, teeny. So you could have 25 micrograms in your multivitamin mineral supplement, or you could have 1,000 micrograms, which is 1 milligram twice a week. And then it's just solved. It's kind of like having the dot at the end of a sentence that big, it's just tiny. So the pill's a little bigger than that because there's some packing stuff around it. But it's just a very, very simple little solution. But we want everybody who's plant-based to make sure that they get that B12 and they don't end up with any of these problems to the nerves, to the red blood cells, to the homocysteine and heart disease risk.

Karina Inkster

For sure. Yep, that makes total sense. Well, let's transition to your second point or second so-called mistake, which was about legumes and beans, I believe.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, so one of the things, which I find people are getting a lot better at this, and of course we've got wonderful, wonderful products, but sometimes people will just leave out meat, or leave out meat and eggs and fish and chicken and dairy, and then carry on with what they've got left. And one of the most sensible things to do is to replace those animal products that are basically classified as protein sources, even though they're mostly actually fat sources, but replace them with a good plant protein. And the superstars of the plant world are legumes. And that includes beans, peas, and lentils. And there's about 20 types of beans. And I'm going to ask you something, so get thinking.

Karina Inkster

I'm ready.

Vesanto Melina

I'm going to ask you if you could think of as much as 20 types of legumes.

Karina Inkster

I don't think so. I could think of some that I haven't tried yet, some of the more obscure ones for sure.

Vesanto Melina

Tell me how many you think of.

Karina Inkster

Oh, man. Types of legumes.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah.

Karina Inkster

I could do, like, including different types of beans, right?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's right.

Karina Inkster

Okay. Well, there are orca beans, kidney beans, navy beans, black beans, chickpeas, at least four different types of lentils.

Vesanto Melina

You're doing pretty well.

Karina Inkster

That's only nine. That's not even half.

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, think of some more colours.

Karina Inkster

Are there any that are purple?

Vesanto Melina

Probably. No, there's some green beans that are purple. And those kind of too.

Karina Inkster

Oh, fava beans, forgot those.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. There's white beans, cannellini beans, black beans, red beans, anasazi. beans that are kind of speckled-y. There are adzuki beans.

Karina Inkster

Right, of course.

Vesanto Melina

There's just such a wealth. And we haven't even, there's lots of people listening. They'll say, hey, you forgot chickpeas or garbanzo beans.

Karina Inkster

Well, there's so many on the list that I'm sure are just not even in my brain right now.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. And around the world, people have had these as their protein sources and they kept people in really good health. And they all have been on to the tricks. Okay, who knows how to create good black beans? Well, we look at Hispanic areas and who knows how to do chickpeas? So there's quite a few cultures that do very brilliant things with chickpeas, whether it's around the Mediterranean or in India. In Asia, they're quite good at red beans and just different parts. They've come out with these really good ideas. French Canadians have a split pea soup. Raw food people will eat peas in the pod, lots of them, or sprout lentils or sprout, the little ones are the ones that you sprout. So anyway, there's just so many different options and I think it's fun for people to go yeah, there are some things that I like and I already eat that have beans in them and they may not think of that initially. And then there are, when we were first writing books, becoming vegetarian and cooking vegan and so on, that we would think if you cook, if your kids say, they're not so familiar with beans, you might cook some red lentils and put it in your pasta sauce. and they just kind of blend in there.

Karina Inkster

Definitely. That's a secret ingredient in my shepherd's pie. Nobody knows.

Vesanto Melina

Okay. Yeah. So anyway, it is really fun, but it is something that sometimes takes some culinary exploration or going down a different section of the supermarket. And sometimes people want to use canned ones. Sometimes they'll want to use frozen products that are really easy to use. Sometimes they'll want to cook them from scratch.

Karina Inkster

That makes sense. So I think the moral of the story is there's probably a legume that you haven't tried yet, even if you feel like you've tried them all. There's probably some that are still new to you. me included, of course. And you can get as fancy or as simple as you want. I mean, there's so many options. There's basically, there's no one-size-fits-all approach. You just pick what works for you and make sure that they're part of an otherwise varied diet. And then you're basically good to go.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah. And that really helps people keep their blood sugar level between meals. Because if they just go, say they're at their work and there's some pasta thing for lunch. And that will maybe get you through for an hour or two into the afternoon, just over an hour, but your blood sugar will drop. Whereas legumes, they have this good staying power. They have a delivery of carbohydrates that's in the form of, it's just easily delivered in a gradual way. And so that'll keep your blood sugar level for up, say, three hours, even 4. So I find that it can be helpful, like, to have hummus ready after school when kids come home, like veggies and pork crackers and hummus dip. That'll be a good protein source.

Karina Inkster

You're making me hungry thinking about all these options.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, it's good, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. I remember when I first started writing, this would be in the 80s, I remember I had in the Vancouver Sun when I was interviewed, said, no more hippie slop.

Karina Inkster

Wow. How far we've come since then, hey?

Vesanto Melina

We sure have. Yes. Yeah, we've one person. Ron Pikarski won gold medal in the culinary Olympics for all types of food, but with plant-based meals.

Karina Inkster

Oh, that's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

We're just finding there's really great food to be had and great food to be had in cities wherever our listeners are.

Karina Inkster

Definitely. Hey, well, let's change gears a little bit. It's something that I'm super interested in and something you've had a huge role in, which is the official position paper on vegetarian and vegan diets by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. And you're the lead author. It's gone through a few different iterations, but I'm very interested in how it came about in the 1st place. And then maybe we can kind of go into how it's changed since then.

Vesanto Melina

Okay. Well, as you can imagine, since I started being a dietitian, which I told you how many, five decades ago. When we first started, when I first started, people were very wary about plant-based nutrition. And they said in textbooks that adult men and also women who were not pregnant could leave meat out of the diet. That was it. Children, no way. Pregnant women, no way. Like, so everybody had to use dairy products. There were four food groups. There was no recognition of ethnic differences. Some people were lactose intolerant. There was no recognition of the widespread nature of that kind of reaction to cow's milk. And there was no support for plant-based diets. They were thought to be risky. So in the mid 70s, things started changing around and the textbooks, which had up to say 1975, they'd said these diets are risky. They started to say that it seemed to be possible to be vegetarian, like to leave meat out. And there was one textbook that had classified vegetarian diets in with food frauds. And they just had it in this diet, in this chapter, as it was really crazy ways of eating. And in 1975, they changed the chapter title to Alternative Ways of Eating. So that was quite a shift, you know. And still, there was some reason for that, because we didn't have that much research. But in the late 80s, there became research on women who were pregnant. This was at a place called The Farm in Tennessee. But there were about 500 women who went on vegan diets. And they knew about vitamin B12. They had a tofu factory on their place where they lived. It was a community and there were lots of people that were married there and they were having, there was a midwifery center and they were having all these babies and they went through this whole experience vegan, the whole community. It was about 2,000 people, but there were 500, I think it was just been, no, between 7 and 800 births. And the Center for Disease Control and some local doctors started looking at this population group and also the children that were born. To their surprise, they found that there was no impact, negative impact on birth weights. The birth weights were fine, just as fine as people who were eating animal products. So these were all vegan moms. And they found that also the children grew normally. but they were a little bit slimmer. And there was also a study in England, they found that some of the children were a bit smaller at weaning age, but by age 5, they'd caught up to all the other kids. So this kind of research was tremendous support for, okay, it's okay to be vegan, like that was said very cautiously. You wouldn't find that many health professionals saying it with enthusiasm, but at least we knew it was possible. And so within some years, the Academy of what was called the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada started having positions and telling their members that it was okay to be on vegetarian diets. Vegan diets were still thought kind of risky, but over time, the current position paper now says that it's fine to be vegetarian, including vegan, at all stages of the life cycle. So that's been a part of the position paper for a few decades now. And if people want to look at that paper, they could look at my two websites, nutrispeak.com. That's like nutrition, N-U-T-R-I speak in speaking.com or becomingvegan.ca. And there's a link to that position paper. But it is really The most, the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics say it's their most widely read position paper. It's used all over the world. And people can show it to their doctor or their in-laws or somebody who's really cautious about plant-based diets and wonders if there's enough research to back it up. These papers are very, very carefully peer-reviewed. Like every little word, every phrase is watched with great care by a number of health professionals who really know the science. And so it's something you can be quite confident about. But it takes you through the different nutrients, talks a little bit about trends and goes through protein, iron, calcium, vitamin B12, stages in the life cycle. And also a new feature in it is talking about the environment.

Karina Inkster

Right. That's actually, that's hilarious. That was my next question is that there's so many different iterations. And the one thing I noticed was, I'm just looking at it right now, that it says plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products. And I didn't remember seeing that in other versions of this. That's kind of interesting.

Vesanto Melina

And I'll tell you, that was a very, very challenging piece to get in. We had one person on, and you don't know who's reviewing the papers. It's all kept blind from each other. And it's also kept separate from influence. Like you don't have Tyson Foods trying to influence you. They don't even know who's writing the paper.

Karina Inkster

Right, yeah, makes sense.

Vesanto Melina

So interestingly, so we had one person, one reviewer who did not want all that environmental things in. And this person kept saying, well, you should make the point that when animals are raised in fields outdoors, that's getting a little bit better environmentally too, before they're slaughtered. And then we could make the point, well, this isn't about that type of food. It's about vegetarian diets. Yeah, exactly. It's not relevant. But people have, a lot of environmentalists seem to have difficulty accepting changing their own personal dietary habits. even though we're aware now that the impact of that could be more effective than changing your transportation choices.

Karina Inkster

Yeah, that's a huge thing, given that animal agriculture is such a main source of greenhouse gases and horrible pollution and things like that.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. It damages the waterways, uses huge amounts of water. Like somebody could give up showering for six months And the water usage that's saved, it would be equivalent to not eating a burger. Like it's astounding. I mean, when you look at how on earth does that work, it's about water that's used on crops, water that's used to clean different areas. There are just so many different aspects. And so we're finding that the environmental impact is just starting to be understood. But the position paper does have a good section, and all the different sections are referenced. So it gives people a starting point.

Karina Inkster

Yeah, definitely. So how has this position paper changed, or has it, other than adding the environmental side of things? I mean, it's gone through, I don't know exactly how many different versions, but throughout the years, there's probably things that have changed based on new research that comes out, things like that.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yes. So some of the recent ones, for example, just in the, I just gave a presentation in California at the 7th International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, and it was just updating some of the changes. So one of them was that there is this environmental section, which is entirely new. One is how much plant-based nutrition has spread. As you say, it's becoming more of a shift rather than a trend, although we did use the word trends. Another one is about iron. And we have thought in the past that the iron from meat is, I'll use this word, better absorbed than the iron from plant foods. But we've had a shift in that concept. What we find is that the heme iron that makes up just somewhere in the range of half of the iron you need is absorbed whether you need it or not. And the non-heme iron that's in plant foods is better absorbed if you need it, and it's not absorbed if you don't need it. Now, iron is a pro-oxidant. It can lead to something kind of like rusting, oxidation. And it's, we actually like antioxidants to protect us, not pro-oxidants that will promote oxidation, just to be sitting around in our bodies. So one of the interesting differences is that we found that we don't necessarily want such high serum ferritin levels. That's an indicator of iron status. And I've found a lot of people on vegetarian diets have somewhat low serum ferritin. But their hemoglobin is fine. So hemoglobin is your working iron. And serum ferritin is like the iron that's sitting on the shelf in case you happen to need it next week type of thing. So the hemoglobin, you definitely need that to be in the right range. If serum ferritin's at the low end of your normal range, that can actually, as it turned out, be a possible health advantage. And there's been research from Korea, from Amsterdam, from the Netherlands, from Austria, that's shown that low serum ferritin levels when they're combined with adequate hemoglobin, can be linked to less risk of type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome and maybe other diseases like cancer and heart disease.

Karina Inkster

Right. Yeah, that's pretty major.

Vesanto Melina

We don't want these pro-oxidants sitting around necessarily. Now, this is something to work out on an individual basis. If somebody's really tired, they don't have enough working iron, but there have been shifts like this that are in the new position paper.

Karina Inkster

Right, yeah. I mean, that's how science should work. It's the best. method we have of learning about the world and it keeps changing and we keep improving our understanding of things. And so it's really cool to see how that's actually manifesting in large scale positions like this.

Vesanto Melina

That's right.

Karina Inkster

This is our current official position and it might get updated and it probably will get updated, but here's where we're at now based on the research that we have so far.

Vesanto Melina

And we find a lot of labs don't know that or doctors. it's just these things filter into the mainstream medical world rather gradually.

Karina Inkster

Right, that's a good point. Well, at least it's going in the right direction, at least from what I can tell.

Vesanto Melina

That's right, it is. It is.

Karina Inkster

That's cool. So we're going to have links to your books and your website and the position paper in the show notes for this episode. But can you share where our listeners can connect with you, either your website or Facebook, perhaps?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, sure. My name is Vesanto Melina, spelled V-E-S-A-N-T-O, and then M-E-L-I-N-A. My e-mail address is vesanto.melina@gmail.com. And the chef school I talked about is rawfoodchef.com. There are nutrition programs. It's quite a fun thing if people want to come and learn about chef stuff. And then we do the, Brenda Davis and I do the nutrition courses. And then my websites are nutrispeak.com and becomingvegan.ca. So thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Karina Inkster

Thank you so much for being here and sharing your knowledge. And it's been really great. Thanks so much.

Vesanto Melina

Okay, bye for now.

Karina Inkster

Thanks so much, Vesanto, for joining us. It was so great speaking with you. And the work you've done in the world of vegan nutrition is just incredible. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Remember to check out our show notes at nobullshitvegan.com slash 012 for links to connect with Vesanto and of course you can read the famous position paper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks for listening to the No ******** Vegan podcast at nobullshitvegan.com.