Thriving on a Plant-Based Diet as You Get Older

Kerryn Sawyer

Well, good morning, good evening, everybody, and welcome back. And today I am very excited to bring you three amazing guests. We are talking to Brenda Davis, registered dietitian, Vesanto Melina, registered dietitian, and Dr. Charlyn Black. So we are here to talk about their brand new book, Plant Powered Seniors. And I'll show you a copy of the book in a moment. But first of all, what I'm going to do is throw it over to the ladies to introduce themselves to you. So, Brenda, why don't we start with you? You're on my left. Why don't you go first?

Brenda Davis

Sure. So I'm Brenda Davis, and I have been, I guess, on this path since about the late 80s for a long time. And I actually met Vesanto in, I would say, 1990. And we started writing together in 1992. So we've written multiple books together, and I've written 14 books, most with the Santos, some without, and she's written, I don't even know how many now, and again, and some independent projects. But what got me onto this path was really concern about animals, to be honest. couldn't justify contributing to the level of pain, suffering, and death that our food system involves. And then, of course, I recognize the environmental impact as well of our food choices. And so to me, it was about ourselves in terms of long-term health, but it was also about things beyond ourselves. And so that's what put me here and has kept me here very solidly for so many years.

Kerryn Sawyer

I love that. Yeah, that sounds a little bit like me. And it was the animals first. And then I realized about the health and the environmental impacts later. Yeah. Amazing. Wonderful. Okay. Vicente, you're next in my line of things. So why don't you go next?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, it happens that we are all seniors and I'm, I'm 84. Wow. Yeah.

Kerryn Sawyer

And still working hard, still working strong. I want to be you when I'm your age. Wow.

Vesanto Melina

That's what my doctor says too. She says, I hope I'll be as healthy as you. I have a throat tickle right now so that I might, um, bow out occasionally if I get a little coughing. But, um, I start teaching you at university in 19 1965 when a lot of people weren't even alive yet. But anyway, I've been through the whole pattern of different ways of eating and started being vegetarian by going to India in 19 78, I guess. And of course they know how to be vegetarian very well. And so that really got, got me off to a good start. And then I started teaching again through university and to the public about how to do it well and to dietitians. So it was kind of a new thing. So Brenda and I just hit at the right moment and our books became bestsellers quite quickly because it was kind of a new idea. And we've, we've had an advantage of having quite different styles. So our books can reach both gourmet people and very sophisticated scientists, Brenda's Moore and that wavelength. And I'm more like the Johnny Cash simple, look fast, you know, that kind. So we really had good advantages. And then of course, we were very blessed to have Sharlyn join us for this last book.

Kerryn Sawyer

That's yeah, that's fantastic. Yes. Brilliant. Well, why don't we go to you next, Sharlyn? Tell us about you. Were you and what's brought you to doing what you're doing.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Hi, great to be here. I'll just start by saying, you know, my motivation was health. I started off as a, right after medical school, I read Diet for a Small Planet. And so it was, you know, an interest. I became a vegetarian then probably in the early 80s and more out of, you know, how do we feed the world? How do we provide equity. But also I have had a deep interest in prevention throughout my whole medical and academic career. So really, really have approached this primarily from a health. So I call myself an accidental academic. I started off as a physician, but just became more and more curious about how things worked and did public health training and eventually, you know, a research career. So I've been tucked away in the academic world, but doing research mainly on health care and health systems, but also population health. So really, as I approach retirement, coming back to my passion of prevention, also interested in animal justice and climate impacts as well. So I really started in 2018 adopting a whole food plant based diet. and have been a big follower of Brenda and Vesanto for many years, a big fan. So it's just been a real privilege to be able to work with them.

Kerryn Sawyer

That's fantastic. Thank you. Beautiful. And you've all come together, you've collaborated to write this amazing book, Plant Powered Seniors. Can you all see, can everyone see that? It's a little blurry, but there you go. I haven't got a physical copy of the book, I've only got the digital copy. But tell us about the book. Like how did this... There you go.

Dr. Charlyn Black

There's the...

Kerryn Sawyer

That's it. Yeah, the non-blurring vision. I love it. I love it. Tell us about this book. It is fantastic so far. I haven't quite finished reading it yet, but it is fantastic. So how did it come about? Obviously, you've known each other for a while, but tell us about why you decided to collaborate and talk about this specific topic.

Brenda Davis

Vesanto, do you want to-- We realized that there.

Vesanto Melina

Wasn't one along this lines out there. Brenda, do you want to continue? Yeah.

Brenda Davis

Sure. I mean, we just saw a gap in the literature, and we've been trying to fill the gaps for as long as we've been writing. And of course, we all are seniors. And so this is a demographic, when we speak at conferences, such a large part of the plant-based community is in this age group.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, right.

Brenda Davis

And there are unique nutrition concerns as we get older and things that we have to do a little differently. And so we just really wanted to provide a resource that was kind of a one stop shop for people that wanted to know what they need to know to ensure optimal health as they get older on a plant based diet.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah. Fantastic. Brilliant. And would you say that this book is more for people who are already plant based or people who are wanting to adopt a plant based diet and want to know how to do it well?

Brenda Davis

We, we wanted to cast a wide net. Yeah.

Kerryn Sawyer

Okay. Yeah.

Brenda Davis

So, so of course, all of us being very plant based, um, we, we tend to think in that, in that way, but we didn't want to make it just for people who are already plant based. We wanted to make it for people who were plant forward, who are moving in that direction, uh, to provide them with, you know, the resource that could, could help them do this really well if they're, you know, if they're wanting to put push their way forward on a, a plant-based spectrum. So yeah, I mean, we want, we wanted it to be for all of those plant forward and plant exclusive, but yeah.

Vesanto Melina

We've all been at every place along the spectrum.

Brenda Davis

Yes.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, that's true.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. We've been struggling with family and friends that aren't quite on that wavelength. We, we really got both scientific experience and personal experience.

Kerryn Sawyer

Experience. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Charlyn Black

I think it's really interesting in some of the interactions I've had recently with one-on-one presentations. People seem to think these are just issues for plant-based eaters, but the changes in our bodies are real. There's some real physiologic changes that change our needs for nutrition as we eat, no matter what your diet is. And so this is a book that's relevant for all audiences, all people who want to be healthy seniors.

Kerryn Sawyer

I love that. And any of my clients, I think we're going to be making this book a must read. Most of my clients are, I would say, in the 50 plus range, many of them 60s and 70s as well. And I think, you know, really understanding what their needs are, certainly as they getting into this age bracket are important. So, excuse me, why don't you tell us about how our needs do change after the age of around 50 or so? Like what are the things that most people aren't aware of and what sort of things do they need to, yeah, what is it that we need to consider as we get older?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, I'll start on that. We're finding that as people get older, about 93% have one or more chronic conditions. And we've detailed these in the book and I think Sharlin will talk a little bit about that more lately. So we've both got conditions happening to most people and we want to avoid the tragedy of medications and all that when we get older. But as we get older, We need fewer calories. People don't exercise as much and they need to eat better though. You can't live on sweetened tea and white toast. You know, we had the tea and toast syndrome idea and that just does not work. It has to center on these whole wholesome plant foods. and including, for example, the number of nutrients we focus on. And we give a lot of details in Plant Powered Seniors about how to do this and how to do it in different ways for different lifestyles. But protein, for example, we don't absorb it as well and we don't build it into muscle or bone as well. Bone is a protein matrix with minerals in it. And so we have to take in more protein and probably 25 to 50% more as we get older. And, you know, people don't quite know how to do this. You know, what do I do for breakfast? What do I do for lunch? What do I do for? So we've given very good recipes and also specifics, what you can do. It doesn't mean you have to eat a big bowl of beans three times a day, but we've given, you know, really appealing ways to achieve this. And so the proteins higher up instead of 0.8 grams per kilo, it goes to 1 to 1.2. And Australia's actually been quite clever about this because they've recognized the need for slightly higher protein with age.

Kerryn Sawyer

Can I just ask you, when you say it's 1 to 1.2 grams per kilo, is that of ideal Like ideal body weight?

Vesanto Melina

You got it.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah. Yeah. Not the, not the overweight weight, not the, um.

Vesanto Melina

Somebody's overweight, then they, their fat cells don't need so much protein. If weight underweight, they have to build it on the, the healthy weight. And if people are frail or have sarcopenia, they may need even more than that or have some condition. Then, um, the B12 is interesting, needed by all seniors. not just plant-based.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

Funny because we don't cleave it off the bonding that it's in animal products as well. So people who are eating those and expect to get B12 from them, a lot of them won't absorb it from animal products. So we're suggesting that for everybody, and these are in the official RDAs, North American, everybody over 50. would get a B12 supplement, which is good, and the vegans should be on this already, and our needs increase. And then a vitamin B6 that's in a whole lot of plant foods. We need more of that. And calcium and vitamin D, our needs go up. And so I'm finding a lot of seniors need to add a supplement like 300 milligrams twice a day. And we've given very exact details in plant powered seniors.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And there's one, two more actually. Vitamin D. I was I was speaking in Honolulu and Maui and talked to their cancer researchers and a third of the seniors in Honolulu are low in vitamin D deficient.

Kerryn Sawyer

Why would that be? Are they just not getting absorbed or do we have issues absorbing it?

Vesanto Melina

It seems to be a lack of sunlight and that we do need supplements on top of that. So you think people go into their, their car in the garage, they drive to work or they drive to the shopping mall, get out indoors, you know, they're just not exposed to sun or they might use sunscreen or they might be all covered up. up or certain Asian populations don't want their sun skin exposed. No, it's just there's lots of reasons. Even smog may play a role. Oh, wow. And they found a long time ago, there was a study, 27 year old skateboarders were low on vitamin D in Honolulu. So that's been really interesting. So we're suggesting that people might want to get their serum vitamin D checked. And the last nutrient that we've explored is a long chain omega three fatty acids, which people get from fish. But it turns out that fish have a lot of toxic minerals and nutrients, or not nutrients, but chemicals that we don't want in the ocean. And the farmed fish aren't being fed as much of the, they're fed the microalgae based omega threes. So we can just bypass the fish and get the supplement form. from microalgae of lantina.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, okay, beautiful. So there's a lot of things that we really need to take into account. And the main reason that we need to become a little bit more precise with our nutrition as we age is because we tend to move less, which means we get less hungry, which means we eat less. And it means that every calorie then counts, it really counts so much more if we want to remain healthy. Would you sort of summarize that as a bit of an outtake of why we need to be more?

Vesanto Melina

That's it, yeah. You've got to make every calorie count.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, as well as the absorption, I guess, from some of those nutrients becomes less and less as we age.

Dr. Charlyn Black

And there are real physiologic changes that happen to everyone as we age in terms of, you know, our ability to absorb things, the amount of stomach acid we produce, the way we process protein into muscle. And, you know, we generally are moving less, so we eat less, our appetites may decrease. So getting more nutrition for every plate that we eat for every bite that we take is really, really critical.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yes, and that's definitely something that I have seen just recently with my father who is becoming more frail as he ages, and he sits a lot more. I've noticed he doesn't eat anywhere near as much as he used to. But of course, the quality of his nutrition, he's not terrible, but he's not thinking about nutrient density. He doesn't eat like me. He doesn't eat like us. He eats a standard Western diet that is meat heavy. I can just see his body getting more and more frail and weak and he's just basically spent two months in hospital having had a back operation. And because he hasn't been moving, his arms are now just, his arms and his legs are just devoid of muscle. It's like he's becoming skin and bone and it's really frightening to see when this happens. So yeah, I think we really need to press this point that looking after ourselves as we age is so important.

Vesanto Melina

There's one more point. You can't just eat your protein powder and sit on the couch and watch TV.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

You've got to do resistance exercise and it has to get a lot to that, you know?

Kerryn Sawyer

Tell us about that. Tell us about, you know, protein and muscle or muscle loss, because this is one of the things that does come up a lot, especially with my clients. this fear around not eating, well, what would I say, question around protein and muscle loss and do I just need to eat the protein in order to prevent muscle loss or do I need to be doing exercise as well? And I know that what I've been telling them, but I'm curious to hear what you say as well.

Vesanto Melina

There's been studies in Asia and in Europe where they had seniors that were fed the high protein diets. And that didn't work. It didn't work unless they did resistance exercise too. So it really has to be both. Your muscles know, hey, I've got to add something, you know, when you're using them. And of course, this makes a huge difference, preventing falls and keeping your life experience, you know, so you can be independent really makes a big difference.

Brenda Davis

And I just want to add something to that because There's a team out of the Netherlands that have, they just did a couple of really interesting studies. One was they compared two groups or they compared people giving them vegan diets versus omnivorous diets and looked at the muscle protein synthesis with the two different diets, but they made sure the amount of protein they were consuming was identical. And they built exactly the same amount of muscle. There was no difference between the animal and plant protein in that study if protein was adequate. And then we went on to do another study where people were self-selecting the diet. And the people that were self-selecting the plant-based diet ate about 20, well, it was 19 to 28 grams less protein than the people eating the omnivorous diet. And so they didn't, you know, they had less muscle protein synthesis because they were eating less protein. But then there was a third group in a third arm in the study where they did resistance training and the vegan, the people eating the vegan diet, doing the resistance training had the same amount of muscle protein synthesis as the omnivores eating, you know, more protein.

Kerryn Sawyer

So they were eating less protein. They were eating less protein, but they were strength training and they were building just as much muscle.

Brenda Davis

Yeah.

Kerryn Sawyer

I love that. I've been searching for like, are there studies out there that that that show this?

Brenda Davis

That this is a brand new study, 2026 out of the Netherlands. And so, you know, muscle loss, I think this is a big you know, the big picture isn't an inevitable consequence of, you know, that of aging that we just have to accept. Older muscle, however, needs a stronger stimulus. So we want adequate protein. Generally, in that range, we were talking about at least 1 to 1.2. And if you're trying to build muscle, you might even want to go a little higher than that. And we want it distributed reasonably well throughout the day so that we can be building muscle throughout the day. And we need to stimulate, you know, those muscles. So we've got to be doing resistance training. And what is usually recommended is at least twice a week. And so we're talking about doing weights. And so that's something that a lot of seniors aren't necessarily doing and need to really consider how, I mean, you can do some, you know, if people can do pushups and planks and things like that, but, but using weights is really, really helpful.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, it is so important. Um, I, uh, I've gotten back into it with a vengeance now because even I could feel my body over COVID when the world closed down, the gyms and things, we had to stay inside. I stepped out, obviously stepped out of the gym and I started walking. I developed a love of just walking, but then I could feel my own body as I was approaching 50 and then I could feel I was losing muscle and I was getting the aches and the pains and the sore hips and I've recently got, well, went back to a personal trainer who's going, okay, your glutes are weak here, your hips are weak here, and we need to rearrange it. And she goes, this is so important as you get, as you become older. And working with her for almost a year now, I feel so much better. I can feel my muscle coming back and it is so important. We can't, we just can't allow ourselves to lose that all important muscle as we age. So yeah, I love it.

Dr. Charlyn Black

One other important part of this is, you know, the progression of nature. We can't just, okay, I do the same thing every day. We have to really increase it so it gets more and more challenging so that we continue to build muscle. So that's what working with a personal trainer with you has likely done has really helped you advance, not just, okay, you can do the same thing again and again. So that can be really challenging, I think, for seniors because they develop a routine, they do the same old thing and think, but really, for this to work, we really need to challenge ourselves and make it harder as we go.

Kerryn Sawyer

Absolutely. And working with a personal trainer can stretch you so much more than you think you're capable of. Our brain does not want us to do hard, and we will stop ourselves before we're really capable. So yeah, I highly recommend everyone getting a personal trainer.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Or doing group classes and pushing yourself hard. Because working with a personal trainer can be pretty expensive and not everybody can afford it.

Kerryn Sawyer

That's true.

Dr. Charlyn Black

So, you know, what are things you can do? And it's often good, Vesanto gets out to group classes and, you know, you get the socialization there as well as the movement, the exercise. It's really, it's a two for one, right, to do things like that.

Brenda Davis

I'm the same. I do group classes this morning. I did a 45 minute spin and then an hour full body strength.

Kerryn Sawyer

Wow.

Brenda Davis

And it's like I like that combo of doing some cardio and then some strength or I do cardio and then yoga. So to get that flexibility maintained. And so, I'm doing, classes pretty much every day or unless I'm out for, a bike or something like I might do something outdoors. But it's very economical. It's fun. I think it really helps people be connected with others as well. It's like a little social thing when you go to those classes.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And you can tell from looking at all three of you, not just healthy with the food that you eat, you're obviously very active as well, which is very, very important. Tell us about bones, especially for a lot of our women who are watching. And I can see one of my clients who actually has osteoporosis. Tell us about what we need for bone health and what can we do to improve our bone health if it is, I guess, not doing so well.

Vesanto Melina

I've explored this quite a lot and we need to increase our calcium intake from 1000 to 1200 milligrams a day. And some people do that, like Brenda finds that it works if you use the fortified non-dairy milks and a calcium set tofu that has lots of calcium and have the greens. But I find most clients are about, they get about 50 to 70% of the calcium they need. And so it's good to top it up. And because we don't absorb it very efficiently, it's good to take like 2, 300 milligram supplements. of calcium at different times in the day, because then we absorb optimally above 500. We don't absorb it as efficiently and you don't want really, really high calcium supplements. So that seems to work a lot for people. There's different ways to do it. And the other part of that is getting the vitamin D that we need. And so people can ask their doctor to check their serum vitamin D and see if they're at the optimal level. And I was a low vitamin D absorber. So I had to go way up like to actually 9,000 international units a day. And that's just an odd example. Now I've been able to back off from that. But Brenda and I, and you know, Charlin too, we check things out, not just with clients, but with ourselves to see what works. And because we're really pioneering this. Do you want to add some things, Brenda or Charlin?

Brenda Davis

Yeah, I can start. You know, we generally lose bone as we age because our hormones changes. We have reduced physical loading. We're exercising less. Sometimes we're not consuming, as Vesanto said, enough calcium, vitamin D, protein, magnesium, all of those things. We may have chronic low grade inflammation. We end up often with a bit of an imbalance in in bone remodeling and bone is living tissue. You know, it's changing all the time. It's not people think of bone like a rock, you know, like never, but it changes constantly. And so, you know, and and so and the other thing I think that is important to say is that, you know, generally vegetarians show, you know, similar or slightly lower bone mineral density than omnivores. But vegans really do have a higher fracture risk. And partly it's because we tend to have a lower BMI, so we have less bone to start with. But there have been a number of large studies showing significantly increased risk. And I think we need to look at the big picture. So people who are vegan have You know, less heart disease, less cancer, less diabetes, less cataracts, fewer cataracts, fewer, um, way less diverticular disease. We have, you know, most of the chronic diseases we're at significantly lower risk for, but that's not the case for osteoporosis. And, and so, you know, and women, postmenopausal women are particularly at higher risk. Most of the studies don't show big differences in men between the vegetarians, vegans, and But definitely postmenopausal women, we do see a different difference. And and you know, it's like I say, partly because of the lower Bmi. But we also tend to consume less protein, less calcium, less vitamin D. And so we need to. We really need to take care of those. And you know, there's a couple of really interesting studies because some people think, well, animal protein, we have to have animal protein to build muscles and bones. But in fact, there was a big study done, and this is a study, the Nurses' Health study and the Health Professionals Follow-up study. This is, you know, from Harvard. And they follow people for over three decades and to see, you know, who was getting hip fractures and such. And what they found was that for every additional 10 grams of protein per day, the risk fell by 8% if the protein came from dairy products. The risk fell 9% if it came from non-dairy animal protein. but the risk actually fell by 12% if the protein came from plants.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Oh, wow.

Brenda Davis

And I think this is because the plant, you know, protein of course comes in packages and plant protein sources are all great sources of fiber and phytochemicals and antioxidants and anti-inflammatory compounds. And so all of those things really matter. Um, you know, plant-based diets tend to be higher in fruits and vegetables. They have a lower acid load, they're lower in sodium. They tend to be higher in certain bone building nutrients like vitamin K and magnesium and potassium. And so they're higher in isoflavone. So all of those things can work in our favor, but we do need to make sure we're doing weight bearing exercise and we're getting enough protein and you know, those kinds of things that all play a role be being the and doesn't mean we necessarily are going to be at higher risk. But if you're not paying attention and you're not doing weight bearing exercise, then yes, you are a little bit higher risk than omnivores.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah. Okay. Thanks for that.

Vesanto Melina

I wanted to mention that we have a food guide that really helps people summarize, you know, exactly what to eat. And so there's guidance on all this very specifically. So it's a very comprehensive and deals with all these different chronic conditions.

Kerryn Sawyer

Fabulous. Excellent. Okay. I'm not sure that I've got to that part yet. So I'm going to have a look at that plate and make sure that I might even snapshot it and or no, maybe I won't do that. But make sure that, you know, when I'm speaking to my clients at least, that they are following that particular guidance. Talk to us about Brain health. This is one that obviously is a concern for some people as they age as well. How can the plant-based diet protect us or what are the things that we need to be considerate of in regards to brain health as we age?

Brenda Davis

Did you want to take this or do you want me there? Why don't you start, Brenda? Yeah, I can start. I actually, it's, it's interesting. I, I just, um, just came back from a brain health retreat. Um, and, uh, the brain health retreat with, um, with the Shirzais, who are both neurologists. And so spending a lot of time, uh, talking about brain health. health for sure. But, you know, brain health is something that I think is one of our biggest worries as we as we age. You know, it's one thing to lose physical function, but to lose cognitive function is like you're losing yourself and your relationship with the people you love. And I think it's the scariest of all. And a high quality plant based diet supports the same, you know, Many of the same systems, first of all, when we think about the systems that protect the brains, healthy blood vessels, the healthy blood pressure, glucose regulation, lower oxidative and inflammatory stress, all of those things that protect our heart and protect us from other diseases also help to preserve cognitive function. And so, you know, I mean, that's important for people to know what's good for the body is good for the brain. And, and so, you know, I think the things that we really need to think about in terms of, of brain health, physical activity and healthy whole food plant based diet. But there are some nutrients that are especially important. And the, you know, vitamin D is important, but long chain omega three fatty acids are important as well. And that's one of the potential shortfalls in a plant based diet. And it was interesting. There was a 2024 study looking at risk of disease and cognitive function in Seventh-day Adventists. And this particular study found that, as I mentioned before, we were protected against almost everything, but some of the neurological issues like Parkinson's and cognitive decline or dementia weren't quite as favorable. And what was interesting is that for Parkinson's, we actually had a lower risk at age 65. It was about 30% lower, but it was 37% higher at age 85 than the omnivorous groups. And dementia was actually 26% higher at age 65, and I think it was 13% higher at age 85. Now, I should say that the results weren't statistically significant. The confidence intervals were wide, which means further research is needed before we can make any huge pronouncements. But I actually talked to the senior author, Dr. Gary Fraser, about these findings. And I said, what do you, what do you think? Why do you think we may be at increased risk? Because there were earlier studies suggesting that we were actually at lower risk. And one was an Adventist health study from the 1990s and one was a Taiwanese study that showed, you know, benefits for vegetarians. But he said, you know, vitamin B12, vitamin D and long chain omega three fatty acids. are the most probable potential nutrition shortfalls that may negatively impact the brain. So what does that mean? It means we need to take care of those. So we need to know our vitamin D status, take a supplement if we need one. And I can tell you, pretty much everyone in Canada needs one. We have, you know, over six months a year where we don't make any vitamin D because it's not warm enough outside. All vegans need a source, a reliable source of B12. And for most of us, that's a supplement. And so for seniors, you might want to know your I think it's a really reasonable thing to ask for, you know, B12 lab measures. So serum B12, MMA, you know, you can get just know where you're at and then supplement appropriately. The long chain omega threes is a bit of a you know, controversial subject in plant-based circles. Some people think it's not necessary because we do convert some of the alpha-linolenic acid from plaques and chia and amp and walnuts into long-chain omega-3s, but that conversion tends to be fairly inefficient and it's probably not optimal. So if you do your omega-3 index, which is an index that assesses your omega-3 status, most vegans are sort of in the 3 to 4% range. And where do we want to be? Probably at least 6 to 8%. 8% is considered optimal. And so for most people, that means taking a supplement, but it doesn't mean you have to eat fish. So fish get their EPA and DHA from little plants in the ocean that are rich in EPA and DHA. And so we can eat those plants and they can be cultured and provided in supplement form at a reasonable price. And so I think that's probably the best thing to do. And in fact, by doing that, we're avoiding what we talked about earlier, the contaminants at heavy metals and persistent organic pollutants. And you know, all of those things that tend to concentrate as we move up the food chain and are fairly high in fish. And and also we have to think of the ecological consequences of just the way that commercial fisheries operate on this planet. So yeah, and this is, microalgae is a pretty renewable resource that can be cultured. And so what I would recommend, I mean, I think as a maintenance dose, we probably need at least three to 500 milligrams a day. But for people that are low, they probably need closer to 5 to 1500, depending on how big they are and how low their levels are. But to get it up to that 6 to 8% range, they probably need somewhere in that range.

Kerryn Sawyer

That's really good to know.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Maybe I can add something. I mean, I think what's interesting to me is how for most of the chronic diseases, and we covered 15 of them in the book, the same dietary principles apply.

Kerryn Sawyer

That's exactly what I'm hearing from you. There's the same. Yeah.

Dr. Charlyn Black

I mean, isn't it interesting that we've answered these the same way? I will say that there's a recent study from the Global Burden of Disease Group that has looked at the preventability of dementia. And You know, while there are limited things we can do once we reach our senior age, one of the most important things for us is actually socialization. It's at the age 65 and above. It's one of the most important things we can pay attention to, to stay socially connected, not, you know, retreat to our homes. to stay healthy and to keep our minds active. So that's why those getting out with other people and doing things is so important.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, beautiful, yeah. So nutrition plays a huge part, but so does physical activity and socialization.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Yeah, well, you know, I'm a member of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine and there are really six pillars of lifestyle medicine and social, also good sleep, dealing with stress, um, avoiding risky substances in addition to movement and nutrition, uh, are really, really important things. So, um, yeah, so it's a whole spectrum of things that we really need to consider. Yeah, absolutely. In the sunlight day.

Kerryn Sawyer

Um, tell, tell us a bit about, um, menopause for women going through that transition in their, I guess, fifties Ish, uh, period of time. Are there any, considerations that women need to think about as they go through this period.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Brenda, do you want to take that?

Brenda Davis

Sure. I'm happy to talk a little bit about menopause. I mean, menopause is, you know, such an important nutritional turning point because declining estrogen affects bone, it affects muscle, it affects body composition. It affects cardiometabolic health. It can increase insulin resistance. And so we see a lot of these issues. And we even see some changes in body composition, like we tend to have a little greater abdominal fat and a little greater loss of lean tissue as well. And because of that, we see rises in cardiovascular disease and so on. So I think the bottom line for menopause in terms of our nutritional, the changes we might make, we want to prioritize adequate protein. We want to make sure we're getting enough calcium, vitamin D, B12, iodine, omega-3s. Um, you know, and so along with fiber and potassium and magnesium and phytochemicals and all of that. So again, it's that same song and dance of, of, um, needing to maybe not have quite as many discretionary calories and make every calorie that we're consuming count because we're eating less and needing more and in, in some respects. And so, and then the other thing, of course, is, is, um, that I, I think that's worth mentioning is soy foods are especially attractive because they're providing protein, they're providing calcium, they're providing some key nutrients that we need, but they also provide isoflavones, which are associated with reduction in hot flashes. In women, there was a study, PCRM did a study that I think it was in the range of 80 to 85% reduction in that study, and they were providing women with, I think it was a half a cup of soybeans a day. So it was not a massive amount. And so a plant-based diet that includes some of those foods can be especially wonderful. And I know when I, I mean, I'm 67, when I went through menopause around 53 years of age, Um, I didn't really have any noticeable symptoms.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Neither did I, you know, it was like, what's the issue?

Vesanto Melina

What's the issue? I gained a bit of weight and the doctor told me, yeah, everybody gains 10 pounds at menopause. So then I had to take it off after. Yeah. But otherwise I didn't even notice it hardly. Mm.

Kerryn Sawyer

It's amazing. I was the same. The only thing I did notice was a few random hot flashes every now and then. And I have to say that the half cup of soybeans was a real game changer when I heard about that. So that was really good to understand. I still keep soybeans here just in case they return. No, the whole mature soybeans. So I just cook them up on the stove and then I put them in the air fryer and make them nice and crisp so they become like a little snack. That's a cheat code for anybody who needs that. Yeah, no, it was really helpful because I was like, what is going on here? How do I deal with this? I remember mum going through that all those years ago. But yeah, absolute game changer and it really helped me sleep at night instead of dealing with the hot flashes at night. So yeah, so it sounds again like the same things that are important for us generally as we age are going to help women going through this transition period. And if you're already like plant powered, plant strong, then the likelihood of getting all sorts of uncomfortable symptoms is quite low. This is what I've experienced with people. And also even just making that transition as if you go through this period and you make the transition to a plant-based diet, I've seen many of my clients reduce lot of the symptoms that they experienced during that time as well. I know this question probably wasn't in the brief that I gave you, but I am curious, what do you think is going to happen as an outcome of this madness of the carnivore diet that is happening at the moment? Anyone got some thoughts on that? Who would like to start? What are we going to see in terms of...

Dr. Charlyn Black

Are you asking us to predict what's going to happen or are you asking about our crystal balls? What would you like to know about our thoughts about that?

Kerryn Sawyer

What is going to happen to people's health if they persist, especially people who are doing it in their later ages? What do you think it's going to do to people's health down the trail?

Vesanto Melina

One of the things we've been doing I did an interview with a doctor on the American Food Guide, which is interesting, and it's the top left. third of it is all the most horrendous things that, you know, we think about shouldn't be eaten. And we also find that in the US they spend more on healthcare and yet their longevity isn't good. And then they have the last 13 years in, you know, disease tragedy. Like it's, they're in very rough shape people. So it's not working and there's been this sort of meet emphasis quite a bit. It just got worse now. So it certainly doesn't look good for the future.

Kerryn Sawyer

I had Dr. Claperon a few weeks ago and he was predicting some terrible outcomes.

Brenda Davis

I know. We were just doing an interview together.

Kerryn Sawyer

Oh, amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I posted, I posted some of his, I'm sorry, carry on.

Brenda Davis

Go ahead. No, go ahead.

Kerryn Sawyer

I said, I posted just a clip of what he, what he was talking about at the carnival dive on social media. Oh, you should have seen all the carnivores come out and rage bait a rage comment on that one. It was very funny. But yeah, I think people just don't really understand the risks.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, the reality, of course, is a carnivore diet is meat and no plants. And when you look at the research on diet and health, It is so solid. Almost every organization you can think of from the World Health Organization to national governments all over the world are suggesting we need more plants and fewer animal products and highly processed foods. And the reason is simple, is that the research is so strong showing that high fiber, high phytochemical, high antioxidant foods you know, legumes, vegetables, fruits, whole grains, nuts, seeds are consistently associated with better long term health. You know, if you look at the people in, you know, the longest lived people in the world in the blue zones or wherever, they all tend to eat very plant strong diets because, you know, that is what is associated with Well, I mean, most of them are eating what is available to them, and it just happens to be mostly plants. They tend to do the best. And so when you remove all of those protective compounds, and we think about what protects us, the fiber and phytochemicals and antioxidants and all of these things, we're removing them and then we're just focused on meat only. Well, meat is loaded with saturated fat. It is a source of trans fatty acids. It's high in Neu5GC, which is a pro-inflammatory molecule. It's a big source of endotoxins. It's a big source of heme iron, which can be a pro-oxidant when you're consuming it in that quantity. So there are just all kinds of pro-inflammatory molecules there. And so what we see is we see pretty significant elevations in LDL cholesterol and ApoB. in many people eating that way. And in fact, many of them end up with serious cardiovascular complications because, and you can imagine what it does to the gut microbiome. And the gut microbiome is important for every body system. And so it just, I don't understand why people would think for a second that this is a reasonable thing to do. It's not. It's not reasonable for human health. It's certainly not reasonable for the planet. If everybody ate a carnivore diet, we'd probably need 10 planet Earths to sustain the current population. It's just, you know, just beyond me. It boggles my mind.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Well, and I think it aligns with the protein craze, and we know that Most people are not protein deficient, some seniors may be, but protein deficiency is not a widespread condition across diets. But fibre deficiency is, and the only source of fibre is plants. So, you know, it's crazy. This is a real cultural thing, I think, and we're going to start seeing the implications. I was recently reading that In fact, there are recommendations to start screening kids, children, pediatric populations for cholesterol levels. That's crazy. So, you know, I mean, we're starting to see these changes attributable to higher intake of meat products and a higher reliance on meat and ultra processed foods at earlier and earlier ages. So I know we're talking about seniors today, but We know that our children are really suffering from this emphasis on the wrong types of food.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Excuse me. Yeah, I'm really, I guess, worried about the state of the human health if people keep going down that route. And certainly it's not Brenda. We just can't sustain it either. So we need to make sure that we're still putting forth the plant-powered positivity and helping people move in this direction. So I want to just finish up with some advice for people who are potentially wanting to transition to this way, or maybe they've been trying to, and what sort of advice would you give them about how to ease into this way of eating, how to take care of their health by eating this way? What is some core advice that you might give to somebody who is wanting to make that change?

Brenda Davis

Well, maybe we'll each add something to that.

Kerryn Sawyer

Beautiful. That's so easy, right? Just buy the book, get the recipes.

Dr. Charlyn Black

My advice is, you know, find ways to add more plants to your diet. This should not feel like deprivation. It should feel like addition. And so if you can find a few things you like, Start adding them. Start maybe trying Meatless Mondays. Start trying a couple of new recipes, one or two recipes a week. Find some things you really, really love because there are some fabulous, exciting, very tasty, very satisfying ways to eat this day. You do not have.

Kerryn Sawyer

To mess up the sweetie things even. Yeah, there you go.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Yeah. A chocolate dessert with tofu that has protein. So there's A healthy dessert, even.

Kerryn Sawyer

I'm going to try that. I can't wait to find out. Yeah, that's a good one. It's good.

Vesanto Melina

It's got two, two ingredients.

Kerryn Sawyer

Cocoa and cacao and tofu.

Vesanto Melina

You got to look. Okay.

Brenda Davis

It's real chocolate. Yeah. I've got bitters.

Kerryn Sawyer

Okay.

Brenda Davis

But you know, I would add that You don't have to do it all overnight. You know, you can start small. Every step you take in the direction of more plant foods in your diet is worth taking. And so, you know, think about the easiest breakfast to me is, or the easiest meal is breakfast. And so, you know, switch from cow's milk to a, you know, unsweetened soy milk as a star. And then, you know, just add in, add in healthy plant foods. And then when you're looking at dinners, you can make plant-based versions, try to experiment with recipes, but plant-based versions of traditional favorites. And you can just gradually add one recipe at a time. Go to potlucks, you know, get connected with people who are trying to move in that direction as well. And I think that can be really, really helpful. And make sure as a senior that you are, because some people, when they transition to a plant-based diet, they continue to eat the same portions that they ate as an omnivore and the food is less calorically dense. So you can actually eat a little bit more and it's important that you eat enough. if you're going to meet your needs for protein and other nutrients. So you need to eat enough food. And so that part can be a little bit of the adjusting as well. But make it fun. Try new recipes and just one step at a time. And your confidence will grow as you know, as you add something to the repertoire each week or whatever.

Kerryn Sawyer

Absolutely, right? As you, the more you practice it, the more you, the better you get at it. And then before you know it, you, you're eating nothing but plants and you're experimenting with your own recipes. You're no longer following somebody else's, right? It might take a little while, but yeah, your confidence builds the more you do. And I love the way you.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Both find a buddy who's interested in trying things with you.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, always having that support. someone to encourage you. But adding in what you might be missing, just crowd in to crowd out, crowd in more of the good stuff and it naturally starts to push the not so good stuff away. And I love the idea of taking dishes that you already know and love and how can you start replacing some ingredients for more plant-based ingredients. And in fact, a lot of traditional recipes around the world were probably originally plant strong anyway, or plant-powered as I like to say.

Vesanto Melina

Oh yeah, people thought that carnivore diet was what people were eating. They weren't for most of that period, 80% of it, they were plant-based.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah.

Dr. Charlyn Black

And we know peasant food is, you know, the food that, represents the traditional dishes of many cultures.

Kerryn Sawyer

Absolutely.

Dr. Charlyn Black

And much more plant-based. So the original food we ate in our cultures is very much peasant. peasant food. And in fact, it can be much less expensive in these challenging times.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yeah, absolutely. I love the way people keep saying that, plant-based eating is so much more expensive. I'm like, what do you mean potatoes, beans and rice? I don't think so. They're pretty damn cheap. So make those the staples of your diet and you'll probably find that your grocery bill actually goes down. Amazing. So yes, tell us where can people find this amazing book that you have written? Plant Powered Seniors, just as a reminder for everybody. There you go.

Vesanto Melina

A website, plantpoweredseniors.com. Beautiful. But there's a dash between plant and powered.

Kerryn Sawyer

Ah, okay. Okay. I'll put that link up.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. It's got a real, my husband has been building that site and it's got lots of good tips on it. And so people can order it online or they can get their bookstore to bring it in, ask their library to bring it in. I want to mention one more thing about community that I live in co-housing. I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's there's some in Australia too, and it's like a recreation of a village.

Kerryn Sawyer

Yes. Yeah. Sort of like a retirement village type of place.

Vesanto Melina

We've had two babies born this year.

Kerryn Sawyer

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And it actually helped somebody with cancer going through his cancer because he had a two year old next door that became his best friend. And you know, it's just It can really make a big difference. And also, um, with regard to trying out recipes, we have something called Snacklax once a month. And the, we ask people to bring a vegan snack. And that means some people might cook muffins, some people might bring a bunch of grapes, you know, it's very simple hummus and crackers. And, uh, then we have a speaker, but it doesn't cost anything to put it on. So people could do that in all kinds of things. situations you know because it often really helps people to start forming those bridges and I don't know if you have that in Melbourne or you know in in Australia like can people look online and find plant-based groups?

Kerryn Sawyer

Yes well I know in Melbourne here we have Plant Powered Melbourne run by Jenny Cameron and Dr. Malcolm Mackay and there are regular monthly potlucks And yeah, and they go really well. They get a lot of people to those and sometimes they'll have speakers there as well. So say someone's coming out to Australia like Dr. Kim Williams. comes out for me, comes out to Tennis every year. So he normally speaks at those events, sometimes comes and has dinner with everybody. So yeah, so they often do get speakers like that. But yeah, I'm not sure if there's anybody any else within this area, but I'm pretty sure the plant powered theme, I'm pretty sure there is other ones around Australia in the main cities as well. But yeah, certainly like getting groups together in your local area, you never know. I was talking to client once, and she felt like she was the only person in her area who was doing plant-based, and she was finding it really hard. And then I said, What if there were other people hiding out there? You just didn't know that they were there because you were too afraid to put yourself out. And as soon as she started just being a little bit more confident about being plant-based, well, she met someone in the supermarket. They were both looking at something, and they just got into a conversation, and they're both whole food plant-based, and said, There you go. We are hiding amongst the community. as well. You never know where everybody is. So yeah, wonderful. Any last words of wisdom for all the people watching? And thank you to everybody who's turned up live today. What would you like them to know about their own health, about protecting their own health, about taking this really seriously as they transition towards, well, into the latter part of life?

Dr. Charlyn Black

I'd start by saying it's never too late to start.

Kerryn Sawyer

Oh, I love it.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Right. That no matter where you are, you can make profound changes, changes to your gut microbiome, even in a couple of weeks with slight changes in your diet. So I just say no matter where you are in that age trajectory, you can start to make changes that'll make you feel a little more vital and energetic and healthier. and reduce either your risk of getting chronic diseases or help you manage them more effectively.

Kerryn Sawyer

Beautiful. Thank you. Anyone else?

Vesanto Melina

People can start seeing changes in their blood pressure. their lipids, their glucose regulation, like how they manage between meals, their fitness, their strength, like they start to see little changes. And I have clients come in even as quick as a week. One of them came in and said, wow, I'm starting to regain the weight I lost. Her husband had dementia. She was pretty depressed and she got that chocolate pudding going in, boy.

Kerryn Sawyer

She'll be coming to you to ask her to take it off next.

Vesanto Melina

So it can really make a big difference when you start seeing these changes come measurable.

Kerryn Sawyer

Beautiful. Thank you.

Brenda Davis

And then I would just add that, you know, sometimes the things we do are hard, but it's worth it. You know, what we choose for ourselves today really does shape what is possible tomorrow, and not just for ourselves, but certainly for ourselves, but for those around us, the people that we love and for the generations that are to follow. This is something that we can do that preserves our health, but preserves the health of the planet, helps to reduce pain and suffering in animals. Even if it's hard, who cares? Lots of things that are of value in life are hard. And to be honest, it's, yeah, being sick is really hard. And what's really interesting is a lot of people don't recognize that until their freedom gets snatched away by a chronic disease. And I don't mean to sound harsh, but we're in a state right now in this world where our daily choices matter more than they ever did. And our example for those around us and for our families is just so critical. And so when we move in the direction, even if we don't go all the way, just moving in the direction of a more plant-based diet, it has such amazing repercussions. You know, all things are connected. So it has favorable impacts on the environment, on animals and on human health in general.

Kerryn Sawyer

I agree with that sentiment completely. Well, thank you, ladies. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. I don't think I've got any questions here. There's a few people who've dropped in and said hi, but no questions have come through. So we will wind up here. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate your time. It's been fabulous. And I really look forward to finishing the rest of that book. So beautiful. Thank you so much. We'll round off right here. See you later, everybody.

Brenda Davis

Thanks, Karen. Bye-bye.

Dr. Charlyn Black

Thanks so much.