Loretta

Hi, I'm Loretta and this is my sister, Sharon. We are founders of the plant-based retreat, the Detox Barn, and we're also a comedy double act. I know, funny vegans. Shoot me now.

Sharon

Nine years ago, I was diagnosed with a chronic autoimmune disease and got myself better using a plant-based diet. Since then, I've just fallen in love with living well.

Loretta

I retrained as a natural vegan chef and each week we'll be interviewing experts in the wellness industry, as well as sharing the highs and lows of trying to live well a single month. moms living together with our two kids. How well have we lived this week? We invested in a journal.

Sharon

Yeah, I'm not a journaly person.

Loretta

Actually, and if I'm being really honest, people that journal and annoy me.

Sharon

Yeah, when anyone says, oh, I journal, I just.

Loretta

Think, oh, **** ***.

Sharon

Journaling.

Loretta

And also, why?

Sharon

What are you journaling?

Loretta

What are you journaling? I mean, sitting there.

Sharon

Oh, today.

Loretta

Yeah, that's just a that is a violence and a judgment about.

Sharon

We know how amazing journaling is. Everybody talks about it in the wellness industry.

Loretta

Yeah, but it almost feels like inauthentic to me. It feels a bit fake. I feel like if I start journaling, it's like I'm going to be Keats.

Sharon

Yeah, well you're not going to, you're definitely not going to be Keats.

Loretta

No, but I feel like I need to use flowery language as I walk across the grass, my feet hitting the blades. I was grateful for the sun that shone. It's shone in my face. I feel like I need to be that, which I don't.

Sharon

Which you're not.

Loretta

And it feels fake.

Sharon

And also I get bored. I get really bored after three days again. I'm grateful for my sister. I'm grateful for my kids.

Loretta

Grateful for my family.

Sharon

I'm grateful for my food that I eat.

Loretta

I'm grateful that I've got food on the table and I'm not a refugee. No, I don't. I'm never. I'm really grateful for that. That's not a funny topic at all. No.

Sharon

No, but what I mean? You become a bit immune to it. We've become immune to what we have.

Loretta

Yeah, and I also think it doesn't.

Sharon

Become like, I remember when I first got better, I was so grateful, I'm so grateful for my health, but now I slightly take it for granted again.

Loretta

Yeah, and I also think this is, you know, a problem for like ******* middle class people, isn't it?

Sharon

Yeah.

Loretta

I don't like journaling. I just don't get on with it.

Sharon

No, I just don't.

Loretta

I don't get on with journaling.

Sharon

I mean, I should, because I really am a wellness ******.

Loretta

Yeah, I prefer breathing through my nose and doing rapid breathing and then jumping into an ice bath.

Sharon

Yeah, I mean, I do that any day of the week. But journaling, no.

Loretta

But yeah, I do the nasal.

Sharon

Nasal breathing while I'm exercising.

Loretta

And the vagus nerve stimulation. Yeah, I stimulate my vagus nerve every morning, heavy panting, jumping into an ice cold bath. jumping out, running across the grass, and then feeling rooted by it hanging off a tree. So it is. I mean, we have to remind ourselves.

Sharon

But a friend of ours said that she's been journaling, and she was coming across like the Mother Teresa, because I thought I'd better try it.

Loretta

No, but it wasn't that. It was what I liked about it, because she was very down to earth about it. And I said, how do you feel like journaling is making a difference? And she said, I'm just not a ***** to my husband anymore. Yeah, and I loved it. She basically said, I'm not a ***** to my husband. I thought, that's nice.

Sharon

I like that. just coming down in a pink jumper are not triggering me anymore.

Loretta

Yeah. What I liked about the journal, Chatterjee's journal.

Sharon

Although I did feel a bit resentment of paying 28 quid.

Loretta

28 quid. Do you have any questions? These wellness gurus are making a fortune. We need to up our game.

Sharon

We need to.

Loretta

We honestly.

Sharon

We need to scale up and product up, man.

Loretta

You know, they know what they're doing, don't they? You know, we're helping the world, but they're helping themselves as well. Let's be honest. No, I mean, it's a lovely book.

Sharon

It's not that spectacular, the book.

Loretta

But it's a lovely book. For 28 quid, it's a lot of money.

Sharon

And my cynicism goes, oh, Ryan, you're really helping the world, aren't you?

Loretta

Yeah, there's all this wellness palava. Yeah.

Sharon

But anyways, it is a nice book and we did buy it. And it's, let's do journaling.

Loretta

And what I liked about it was it's only three questions.

Sharon

Yeah, three questions in the morning and at night.

Loretta

Because what I liked about it is like, what went well today? So that was nice. What have you done for somebody else?

Sharon

I struggle with that one. I really struggle with that. And like the other day I wrote, made my daughter dinner. you can't write that. Why not? Because that's just a normal everyday task.

Loretta

Yeah, but I really put a lot of effort into it.

Sharon

Oh, Jenny says you can't write that.

Loretta

Yeah, but no, I really struggled. And then the other day I wrote, I had someone come round to fix the heating. I asked him if he wanted a cup of coffee and I went, Should I give him instant or give him our, like, strainer?

Sharon

Normally have instant in the cupboard.

Loretta

Well, I do.

Sharon

Irish mother comes over.

Loretta

When mum comes over, she only drinks instant. Nescafe.

Sharon

Nescafe goal.

Loretta

Yeah, so I thought, well, I'll give him the instant. And then I went, that's not very nice. No. Give him because some of your, like, you know, really... organic, funky coffee.

Sharon

Discount code, journal. Trying to do what they do.

Loretta

Yeah.

Sharon

But yes, you made him an instant coffee. That's what you've done.

Loretta

I didn't make an instant coffee. I made him a funky coffee. Yeah. And then I gave him a flyer afterwards. Yeah.

Sharon

Are you actually trying to sell? You weren't doing it for him.

Loretta

No, I did do it for him, but then he was asking about it and he said, he said, how do I get it? Because he loved it so much. Sell, sell, sell. Got to make some money out of this wellness, Malaki.

Sharon

This week, we talked to Vesanto Melina. She is a sought-after speaker and personal consultant. She is the lead author of the latest position paper on vegetarian diets for the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, and is the recipient of the prestigious Riley Jeffs Award from Dietitians of Canada. She is also best-selling author of 14 books. and has no sign of slowing down. At 82, I've never been with someone with so much energy and spirit. It's just a joy to be in her company. She also started dating in her 60s, so showing us it's really never too late. This episode is jam-packed with the science behind the power of a plant-based diet. For Santo's passion for animal welfare holds no bounds. She really is a shining light in the plant-based movement, and I'm really excited to share this episode.

Loretta

This episode is sponsored by our very own product, Funky Coffee, which was named by my daughter.

Sharon

Do you have to keep telling people that? It's really annoying. It's not necessary. Well, she did come up with it.

Loretta

No, I'm not starting again. It's triple certified organic Arabica coffee boosted with adaptogenic mushrooms.

Sharon

We say it's like a supplement in your daily cup.

Loretta

It's great for immune support. It's a rich source of polyphenols and antioxidants. It's great for cholesterol and blood sugar, stress and anxiety, brain health. You get calmer energy without the jitters or caffeine crash. But don't take our word for it because we're trying to sell it.

Sharon

We don't have a pension.

Loretta

Listen to what people are saying about it. So we're going to read out a few of the messages. We get these messages all the time. 95% of people that order our coffee online become regular customers.

Sharon

This is from Josie. This coffee is delicious. I'm a real coffee snob and I love it. No after effects. Don't think I'll buy anything else, just ordered three more bags.

Loretta

Thanks, Josie. This is Adam, which we actually want to incorporate as a tagline. All the buzz without the fuzz.

Sharon

And this is from Luxury London. I am obsessed with this mushroom coffee. It's delicious. I'm on my second bag and it's been a total game changer. It really helps with my focus throughout the day. I'm a total convert.

Loretta

For our listeners, you can get 10% off. Go to gavinsisters.co.uk and use the code podcast at checkout. out.

Sharon

I really hope you enjoyed this episode. Our podcast is really growing and that's thanks to all of you for reviewing and subscribing. Please just take a sec to review and subscribe. It really helps. So lovely to have you on the podcast, Vesanto. Incredible. I was just looking at all the books that you've written and you've co-written a lot with Brenda, who we've had on this week as well. So just amazing to see the history of work that you've established, you've put out to the world. So thank you for that. Tell us a little bit about how you became plant-based. Were you brought up plant-based? How did you transition to that way of life?

Vesanto Melina

Okay. Well, my father was a physiologist and he actually worked with Best and Banting, who used insulin for people with type two diabetes. We were actually in England in the, I guess, 1959, 1960, he was doing research at Mill Hill. So he had this physiology direction and my mother liked to work with children. She worked at the Child Study Center at the university and She was just really fun, liked to have fun things with children. And so she liked having us cook. And so I got to really like preparing food. So it was kind of a combination, the nutrition, the physiology, and the nutrition. So I started teaching university at the University of British Columbia. Oh, and I studied at the University of London while we were there doing research. But then I found that over time, I went to India for four years, and that's what we were doing in the '70s. And it was quite interesting to learn about the vegetarian direction of India, and they had really good food. And so I started learning about more plant-based, and then I came back and was teaching dieticians about this, and our first book came out of that. So that was an evolution. But early on, I was eating, you know, all kinds of steaks and Chateaubriand (dish) and drinking too much and, you know, all kinds of things that really weren't that good. And then just over time. So with India, I got interested in the good food. Then I started teaching people how to do it, both health professionals and the public. And then out of that came our first book with Brenda Davis. And so we've been writing together for 30 years and we're still friends. So that's pretty good.

Loretta

Amazing. And for the listeners, what was your first book called?

Vesanto Melina

It was called Becoming Vegetarian. And it was actually a vegan book, although we didn't even know the word vegan, but we wrote a chapter in it called Without Dairy. And it didn't say dairy was bad. It just said, this is how you can get the nutrients. Well, the dairy farmers got really upset about this book and wrote a 42-page booklet against it, gave it out to everybody they could, and that kind of made our book a bestseller.

Loretta

Amazing. That's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

It was really interesting how it worked.

Loretta

So were you motivated by health reasons when you did all the research, you thought actually being plant-based would be more beneficial?

Vesanto Melina

I was first just interested because of India. And they had they had a different, you know, the Eastern religions see that people have more than one life and some of your lives are animals. Like they had just have a really different perspective from the Christian and Muslim religions. And so I was just interested in that whole concept. Of course, we can't tell, at least I can't tell whether it's true or not. But then I became interested in animal issues when I started learning things like boar bashing, how they smash the pigs on the snout so they'll get into the truck. And that really put me off wanting to eat animals anymore. And even animal products because of the dairy farmers The calves, the boy calves are all made into veal and so on. So then I was interested in the animal issues, and then I was interested in the health. So the health actually came later, and then the environmental issues. And I'm 81, so I was very interested in how I started writing when I was around 50 and I was interested in how you get older and stay in good health. So you're not in the last decade of your life disabled and in pain and that kind of thing. So that was really interesting. And then what's been mounting up lately that's really drawn a lot of men to this area is the environmental issues, which are just overwhelming. I mean, we're having heat waves Right, you are.

Sharon

We have been, we have, the last few years, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

So it's just becoming important to everyone that we start changing our habits. And so we were very fortunate in the Plant Powered Protein book to have a section on environmental impact.

Sharon

Yeah.

Loretta

So you said you started writing at 50. Is that when you became vegetarian or vegan or was it before then?

Vesanto Melina

That was when I became vegan. I had been vegetarian since, we're about 45 years now, since I was in India.

Loretta

Right, okay, okay.

Vesanto Melina

So I hadn't eaten meat and then I stopped eating. I like things like spanakopita with feta cheese and, you know, that kind of thing until then. And then I just stopped all that.

Sharon

For the listeners that can't see you, I mean, you know, you've just said you're 81 and you look incredible. And this is, I think, because me and Loretta was sort of, Loretta's hit 50, I'm nearing that too now. So we're just sort of like, we've become really passionate about how do we live well, how do we keep fit. until our later years, we want to be functioning as well as you. And I think that's a lot when we run our retreats, it's kind of what we talk about, but the choices that you make today have such a big impact in our future. And there's loads of parallels in that, isn't there? Because it's the same with the environment, it's same with your body. And also the connection, which I think is amazing, is Obviously, it's really cruel to kill and eat animals, but it's also bad for us. It's bad for our health. So, you know, on some level, your body is telling you that this is not the right thing to do. So tell us, when you first wrote the first book, Becoming Vegan, how did it sort of hit the market? What happened after that?

Vesanto Melina

Well, we had some backlash from the dietitians and people saying, they even put ads in the dietitian's journal about our book, but it just seemed to make it more important, more well read, more of a bestseller. And we also found that there was tremendous interest. We were just at the beginning of a widespread interest in going more plant-based. There had been some directions like diet for a small planet 20 years ago, but there was just tremendous interest starting. But at that time, most of the, and I did little classes for the public and showed them how to make things that were easy, but 95% of my class attendees were women. Now I find there's much more equal interest in men as well. So it's really shifted over time. The dietitians also had kind of a mistrust of plant-based. It was kind of seen as something like a hippie thing, you know, people with hairy legs and that weren't going to, wearing sandals and, you know, it was just this concept. And so that's really changed. And so there was an interesting In 2016, I guess, I was asked to do the keynote address for Dietitians of Canada. And it was in the port capital of Canada, Manitoba. And I was really kind of nervous. So I hired a speaking consultant and so that I could do a really, really powerful presentation. And I got a standing ovation. And I came off the stage and we had our Becoming Vegan comprehensive book. just out. And I gave it to the director of Nutrition for Health Canada. And he said, Oh, my family eats a lot like this. He said, We're not completely vegan. But that book went around the office. It's entirely referenced. It's very, very well put together. And the Food Guide for Health Canada came out and they had used that book in their office while they were creating the new food guide, which is very much more plant-based. What I also realized at that time was that our food guides, which had a required milk group, were actually racist. because 70% of the world's population has some degree of lactase insufficiency. They don't have the enzyme lactose. So they get abdominal discomfort if they drink like more than about a third of a cup of milk. And yet we had it as a required food on the food guides. And it isn't a normal food for indigenous people, for a lot of Asian people, like it's kind of Northern European thing. Some Southern European, yeah, to drink milk. So anyway, that was really interesting. And the new food guides in many countries now, including Canada, don't have a required milk group.

Sharon

'Cause out of everything that we've learned is that, you know, milk, you know, it really is not great to be having in our diets. And the fact that we were, you know, when we were growing up as children, we were given milk in bottle, at school, weren't we? Yeah, that's right. In our breaks. We were given milk.

Loretta

I think Canada is way in front of the UK in far as their dietary advice goes here in the UK. I think it's still a little bit frowned upon to be vegan.

Sharon

It's, it's not. Yeah, it's still a bit, oh, you need to be careful and oh, did your doctor know?

Loretta

Yeah.

Sharon

And you know, what about, as we just said, when we were just talking before we started recording is, you know, we run plant-based retreats and actually your book Becoming Vegan is just perfect for our guests because we don't really have, we have a few, but mainly it's people that are just a bit interested in being a bit more plant-based. And that's the number one. They are still a little bit, what about the protein? What about the iron? And because it's such a big question, I'd love to ask you, especially about the iron, because I noticed when we did, we've been plant-based for 10 years now, but my iron levels did go lower and I had to work a bit harder at sort of maintaining good blood work with my iron, and I didn't want to take iron supplements. I wanted to obviously to get it from the food. Tell us a bit about the iron and the protein and how we can get it being plant-based.

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, our hemoglobin is made with iron as a central molecule. So that's one of the things they measure. They also measure serum ferritin, and that's the iron that's sitting on the shelf waiting in case we need it, and that is a pro oxidant. So what they found more recently is that high ferritin levels can be linked with the higher risk of type two diabetes and cardiovascular disease and some cancers. So whereas we thought we needed high hemoglobin, which is the working iron, which we definitely do need, and high serum ferritin, which we Uh, you've got to have high hemoglobin, but your ferritin doesn't need to be high. Um, we don't want it really, really rock bottom, but if it's at the low end of normal, it's fine. Now, I find that most vegetarians are kind of low in ferritin and they're perfectly healthy. They're able to, you know, I've, I did a, uh, kind of mini triathlon last year, um, Many of my clients have low serum ferritin but high hemoglobin, and they're fine. So part of it is our understanding of the lab results, which most physicians don't know that well.

Sharon

I get really confused about the iron. As you say, it is a bit confusing. What about the folate levels? Is that linked to the iron?

Vesanto Melina

No, that's another nutrient that we need. We need a lot of nutrients. But you know where the word folate is from? No. What does it make you think of? Foliage.

Sharon

Oh, yes.

Loretta

Yeah, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

So what kind of plants do you think it's in?

Sharon

Cruciferous.

Vesanto Melina

All the greens, the leafies. So that one, you can actually get a fair amount. Now, we've had to work these things out very carefully. So in our books, we have menus or showing people how to get even the higher levels of folate that you need during pregnancy. But I think it is a good idea in pregnancy to have folate as a supplement. You don't want that one to drop low because most people aren't eating like huge, huge, huge amounts of greens and beans and the different things that give the folate. But you can easily meet the regular recommended, but the ones for pregnancy, I think a supplement is advisable.

Sharon

That's quite interesting because I can't remember, it's been a while now since I looked at my blood, but my folate was actually quite high, but my ferritin was quite low. So anyways, maybe I'm having lots of greens, so that's good.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, it's good. It's good, yeah. So, and people also, when they go to a naturopath, they're often recommended to have magnesium. You know, every naturopath sells magnesium to their people. And yet that is the central molecule in chromium, in chlorophyll. Right, in the green. So it's in everything green too. And so those of us that are eating, for example, I have a kale smoothie each morning, with some orange juice or oranges and bananas and hemp seeds for some added protein and omega threes. And I have salads, at least half my plate is salad at lunch and supper. So we get lots of those leafies.

Loretta

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And I taught at a raw chef school for a few years before COVID and people would practically have a wheelbarrow full of salad for lunch. They have huge salads, really big.

Loretta

You might be able to help me because I was having an argument with someone on TikTok, not an argument, but I was demonstrating a smoothie that I have for breakfast on TikTok, and I was showing how you could get 10 different fruits and veg in one smoothie. So I made this video and I put it up and you know, you know what social media is like? I was getting backlash. So someone was commenting saying, you will overeat by eating a smoothie. When you blend foods, you don't get the fibre. Too many calories in one smoothie. Too many calories in one smoothie. What would you say? Help me with my argument. What do I say back to this person?

Vesanto Melina

We actually do want fiber. It's cleaning out our GI tract. And what we find is that vegans can have at least as much fiber as the recommended, which most people don't get, and even up to twice as much. Well, our ancestors actually got close to four times as much as the recommended, the current recommended intakes. And so they ate a lot of fiber, even people that we think of as paleo, And the modern paleo is eat a lot of meat, right? But the real paleos ate so much plant food that they had very, very high fibre intakes. Fibre is a good thing to have and it keeps us healthy and you don't really need to worry about it getting to extremely high levels. What was the other thing that you were focusing on?

Loretta

Oh, so she said that by blending it, You take away the, you take away the fiber.

Sharon

We said it's not because you're blending it. The fiber's there. Is that right?

Vesanto Melina

What you do is break the cells. So some digestion starts. So some people who have problematic digestive situations, I've been to the Anne Wigmore Institute in Rincon, Puerto Rico, and they were dealing with people who had severe digestive issues. And so when you have a smoothie, it can actually start the digestive process because the cells are broken and the plant cells have enzymes in them to start the digestion. So that can be a help for people to digest. It doesn't digest the fiber, but it starts some of the starches digesting.

Sharon

Oh, good.

Loretta

We can fight back in a very nice and loving, kind way.

Vesanto Melina

One of the things is that nutrition is a relatively new science. The first vitamin was discovered at the start of World War I, 1914. And the first vitamin was identified at that point. Well, they knew there was A and B. B turned out to be a complex a bit later, but it's a new science. We're finding things out all the time. That's why our books have been so interesting to do. And I think for our Becoming Raw book, we had 1,200 references. and in our plant-powered protein, there's a plant-powered protein website, you can see all the references like for each chapter, huge numbers. And we're just learning things. Okay, what about vitamin D? What about ferritin? You know, these are new and all of the health professionals aren't even up on the latest because you got to be really running fast to keep up. Yeah.

Sharon

So what do you think about taking supplements? Do you advise supplements?

Vesanto Melina

Yes, definitely B12. And in my latitude, which is 49 degrees north, fairly similar to yours. I think yours is a little bit even more northern than that. We definitely need vitamin D in the winter. Yeah. And we're also doing these kind of conflicting things. We're wearing sunscreen, we're trying to stay out of the sun, we're covering up a bit so that we don't get skin cancer and yet we have this idea that vitamin D comes from sunlight on the skin. Most people are getting into their car, driving from their carport into a store, parking lot, or where they work. They're not exposed to the sun very much. So we can't expect vitamin D to come from the sun. And especially in the winter months, like from October to the spring to April. So we definitely need vitamin D and we need B12.

Sharon

Do you think we should, because again, this is conflicting and I've spoken, I think it was to Tony Riddle that we had on this podcast and other wellness guides and gurus, and they're really saying that sun on the skin, obviously not burning, but sun on the skin is actually very, very good. Good for you. But not in the peak hours, but say like from, you know. Early morning, maybe late evening to go without sun protection, but then you get all the, You know, the fear about skin cancer, where do you sit on that?

Vesanto Melina

I tend to not use sunscreen.

Sharon

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

I just don't. And, uh, so my skin has little brown spots on it here and there, you know? Yeah. And, and, uh, so from a dermatological point of view or, uh, you know, beauty point of view, some people wouldn't want that, you know? Um, And I do take vitamin D, but I actually tracked vitamin D a lot. I went with a lifestyle clinic here that was a group of vegan doctors and tracked my vitamin D. And I found that when I wasn't taking it, you know, I'd maybe take it once a week or something like that. My vitamin D was really low and it put me at risk of osteoporosis. So now I've boosted my vitamin D and it took a while to get it to the right level. And I had to pay for vitamin D tests because they weren't covered by the medical system. It was just done for interest, really. But then I found that I had to go up to a high level, up to 8000 international units at first, and now I'm down to 5000. So one of the major vitamin D research Dr. Veith at the University of Toronto that I talked to, he said, What is optimal for one person can be toxic for another person. Like we really vary. So vitamin D is one that we're wondering a lot. You know, there's all kinds of theories and people recommending different things. And to tell you the truth, we really don't know all there is to know about vitamin D. And one of the ways you could really check if you're at the right level is to get a lab test done and see if you're in the optimal range. And so I did that over the course of a year. I had about three tests and got myself to just the right range. So that was an interesting one for me.

Loretta

Oh, do you know what? If I had enough money, I'd be testing myself left, right, and center because I love all that to see, you know, if you eat this.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?

Loretta

Yeah, what happens?

Vesanto Melina

Because we're learning these things about ourselves and you're in your own little experiment. Yeah, yeah.

Loretta

I have to say, Vasanta, last night you sent me an e-mail and I actually forwarded your e-mail to lots of girlfriends, to my single friends, actually, because I said, this amazing woman has sent me this e-mail and she has offered up some topics for discussion. And one of the topics for discussion was the fact that you found love quite late in life and you did it on a dating app. So I said, it's never too late. And I sent it to my girlfriends and they were all really impressed. So tell us about finding love. I think you were in your 60s, is that right? And it's your third marriage.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. I was 62. So I was married. I married my first boyfriend. I met him when I was 16 and married him when I was 22. And I think I was scared to, you know, I was really shy, much shyer than I am now. And he's a nice guy, but it wasn't a good fit. Like, I'm kind of out all over the world writing books and stuff. And he's very inner. He goes to sleep at six o'clock and wakes up at four. And I mean, he's really different. So we weren't a good fit, but we had kids and went through that. And then I married somebody else. Again, it wasn't that good of a fit. I wasn't that good at it. And then I just, yeah, I dated a while and then I had a friend actually, and we'd come home from our dates. We'd go on dates and wouldn't actually sleep with people. We'd just go on dates with them and see what they were like. And then we made-up our list of what we wanted with my housemate, younger woman and I. And it was really interesting. We said, yeah, I want this quality. Oh, I think I want that. You know, so we were doing that, really doing that. And so I went on lots of dates and then found on one, and it was interesting because there were people who would say, yeah, I'd like to have a few drinks, you know, and I'd know they were kind of close to an alcoholic, which I did not need to be with. Or they would kind of comment in the first date and bring me a dozen roses and I knew we weren't a fit at all. And I'd go, yikes, what do I do? But I realized that with the dating apps, you really can figure out where somebody's at. And some of the very interesting people who are not, they're not at some dance party or a bar or anything like that, they're just working and doing their life and they're kind of shy and all that. That's some of the nice people you'll get on a dating app. So I did get this one. and who I've been with now for 18 years and he's just the most wonderful blessing in my life. It took a while for us to get fitted though, but we did finally.

Sharon

Did you have to do, 'cause me and Loretta have done some dating. Loretta's, we're both divorced and we live together and we live with our children and we've done a bit of dating. You're a bit more reluctant than me, but I have got really bored of it because as you say, I think as you're older, you know whether it's a fit or not a fit and I can't be bothered to just keep endlessly going out with people that I'd be like, oh, I'd actually rather be at home watching a documentary and I'm having to do this. So I got a bit tired of it. But do you think is the secret perseverance?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I was 62.

Sharon

Yeah, yeah. So I shouldn't be tired, should I?

Vesanto Melina

By then I'd smartened up a bit. Yeah, yeah. I think that really helped. Yeah. So one of the things is that there's some really, really nice people around.

Sharon

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Like just super nice. And some of them are very shy and, you know, there's probably some meetup groups for people, you know, as well, the way you can meet in person. the dating apps could be could be really good. So of course, I always met at a restaurant, very public and just for coffee or a snack kind of thing. Yeah. You know, not all.

Sharon

Yeah, that's a good that's a good tactic. Good strategy. Yeah.

Loretta

I think the difference between you and me is I can tell straight away you've got a really good mindset. I can tell that, you know, the way you're talking about the potential people is in a really positive light and I'm a bit more cynical. Oh God, I've just met another idiot. Oh God. You know, so I think I need to change. I need to work on my mindset.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, nice.

Loretta

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. Yeah. But there really are some wonderful guys out there.

Loretta

No, I'm sure. That's good.

Vesanto Melina

And it's fun to have somebody to do it with, you know? Yes. Yeah.

Sharon

We should do it together.

Loretta

Yeah, we should, we should. We should, yeah.

Sharon

Maybe we'll get, we've got quite a busy year, maybe next year.

Loretta

Yes, yeah.

Sharon

When you made-up your little list, did you have to be vegan and eat vegan?

Vesanto Melina

Well, no, I wasn't even vegan. Well, no, I was vegan, but I didn't write in my bio. By the way, we've helped people write bios and taken their pictures so they look, you know, yeah, taking their pictures. But I found that, I wrote vegetarian 'cause that wasn't quite as scary. So the man that I'm with, he had actually been a Franciscan at one point in his life. And St. Francis was, you know, vegan basically. I don't know how he got B12 back there in 1200 AD, but he did somehow. But anyway, so he was kind of easy to be not eating meat. And then to ease into being vegan was pretty easy for him. And the other thing, so when he saw a vegetarian, that didn't put him off. I don't know if vegan would've, might've thought was too much, but I was vegan, but I just didn't write that. And then I found over time that the good food was what draws people, you know, because Cam didn't think he'd like tofu at first. And you know, of course, here's this blah looking thing, you know? And then over time when it got to taste really good, and he actually likes tempeh better to my surprise. But when you get the good foods and you find the ones they like, then it all settles down. It's pretty easy.

Sharon

Yeah, I think that's the key, isn't it? And I know when I was, before I became vegan, because I became vegan first and foremost for health. And then the kind of environment and the animals were secondary. But that was my first driver because I was very, very sick. And, you know, I tried not, I didn't want to be vegan at first. I was like, it's too hard. What do you eat? It's going to be awful. You know, I'm going to be miserable. You know, sat in the corner eating lettuce leaves and drinking water. And I was just like, what, this is going to be awful, you know? I remember thinking, but every bit of research I do about people getting better, majority of them were plant-based. And I remember Loretta going, I said to Loretta, look, I've got to be a teetotal vegan. This is where I think I've got to go. You've got to do it with me because I need some support. And because Loretta was always a really good cook, she was like, look, if we're going to do this, let's learn about it. Let's create the best. you know, tasting vegan food so that we don't ever feel like we're missing out. And that's what we like to share at our retreats.

Vesanto Melina

And the word plant-based can be easier because people can really relate to that. Vegan, they think there's this club they have to join and it might be a really horrible club, you know, and they don't know it for a while.

Loretta

It does, for some reason, it conjures up negative connotations, and I don't know why that is.

Sharon

It's changing a bit.

Loretta

It is changing, but I feel like plant-based feels... like less of a movement and more of a way of eating.

Vesanto Melina

That's right, yeah. So we're plant-powered protein in our book instead of... But our vegan books are still selling well, that Becoming Vegan Comprehensive is a textbook in the US, Canada, Taiwan, the big one. But still vegan is a bit scary for people. And I find also that people know darn well that it's better and it's a direction they should go and they just don't want to. Like, they're like, yikes. I have to give up my cheese, my favorite cheddar. No, I can't do it, you know.

Sharon

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, when Loretta was doing her vegan chef course, I mean, you created some amazing vegan cheeses that were really healthy, weren't they?

Loretta

Yeah, they were lovely. We're done with... probiotics and cashew. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And what we know now is that it isn't the milk that makes cheese, it's the fermentation. So you can ferment cashew milk or I'm hoping for some seed milks that will be even a bit more environmentally friendly. Like there's some really good cheeses now. I'm glad to see that you're going that route. I'd love to try some of yours. Yeah.

Sharon

Yeah, it's really good.

Loretta

And you're also affiliated with Happy Cow, is that right?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I think Happy Cow is a wonderful website. I always tell people about it because they worry. I remember once going to Edinburgh and I just looked and saw that Henderson's was just up the hill from the train station, you know, and you could just go there or you go to London and you can see near your hotel or near your house in your neighborhood, or you can go to Timbuktu or I live in Veg Couver and we have, I think, 70, 67 vegan restaurants.

Loretta

Really.

Sharon

Wow.

Vesanto Melina

So that's why I call it Veg Couver instead of Vancouver. But people can find something really to their taste nearby. And Happy Cow has good vegetarian restaurants, vegan restaurants, and veg friendly. So if you go out with a family group that's mixed and you need to have a number of diets. So it's a very well done website and people keep up to date on it.

Sharon

Yeah.

Loretta

So do you think Vancouver, the reason why it's got such a high intensity of vegan restaurants is from the government, as in the fact that their guidelines promote so much plant-based food?

Vesanto Melina

I don't know what it is. It seems a pretty healthy city. Like we walk around the lake every morning and I do three fitness classes a week and as well as yoga also. And you know, there's a lot of people interested in being fit. I think the environment supports that. Yeah, yeah. But the government can support things like parks. I don't know that they support vegetarian as much. The federal government has made the Canadian Food Guide one to really admire. I think Britain's not too bad with that plate, you know, but they're all moving along a bit.

Sharon

They are, they are.

Vesanto Melina

And it depends if you can find some people in those really strong roles. that are on a plant-based direction, they help shift it along.

Sharon

And the other thing is that in your notes that you were sending us last night, and it's something that me and Loretta, it's become massive over here with Tim Spector sort of leading the way, is about glucose and insulin resistance and us all checking our blood. sugar levels after we eat. And I know you were sort of talking a little bit about, because I know you've written a book called Kick Diabetes Cookbook, but you're also talking a little bit about grumpiness levels and glucose drops. And tell us a bit about that, because I think lots of people want to know about that.

Vesanto Melina

That makes me think when I was in England, because we were there with my dad and we came to the Queen's Garden Party at Buckingham Palace.

Sharon

Oh wow.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. Wow. And because my dad was doing cancer research at Mill Hill. But anyway, it was funny because what we got were those little squares from some, they had icing all the way around them. I forget what it was called.

Loretta

Oh yeah, I know, are they Mr. Kipling's.

Sharon

That's the queen's house. I don't know. I think that's got better than Mr. Kidley.

Vesanto Melina

That was so weird. That's what we got to eat anyway. Yeah, yeah. So, but my family was, is very creative and also very alcoholic. One of my sisters is a stunt woman with Euro Disney. She's retired just recently and the other one's an actress in Toronto and I write books and my uncle was an art director at the Met and my dad was a physiologist, but also concert pianist. And, you know, so we were all like this, you know, you have to get ahead in the world and blah, blah, blah, but alcoholics too.

Loretta

Right. Okay. Often goes hand in hand. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I don't think we knew that much about our emotions. So one of the reasons I went to India and to an ashram was to kind of learn the other side of life that wasn't just all about academia and brains and getting ahead in that. And so when I came back, I read a book called Eating Right to Live Sober. It was an old book, it was in the '80s. And it showed me that your blood sugar, which is controlled by your pancreas, it can fluctuate different ways in different people. And they did some twin studies in Denmark, and the twins were from alcoholic families, but were adopted into different families. And they still came out with these same tendencies of not being able to keep their blood glucose very level. So what I would find is that for me and for one of my sisters, if our blood sugar dropped, like we could just grab everything around and just stuff it in, you know? And we could finish off alcohol, you know, that kind of thing. And we didn't really know that much about our emotions. So I've helped a lot of clients with understanding this. What happens over time for me is that I've realized that different foods can help us stabilize our blood glucose. And I need to be really careful to eat the ones that help me keep it level because when my blood glucose drops, I will get pretty ****** or, you know, I'll feel really threatened. Like, you know, this is really important. Like you, you know, and some clients I've had would instead get very sleepy and they'd just be, Ah, falling over practically. Another thing that happened, I had a glucose tolerance test when I was exploring this, and I could not see to read. I couldn't read the magazines in the waiting room of the clinic when I was having my blood sugar checked for about a few hours. They check it every half hour. So I realized that our glucose is the fuel for our brain, and if it drops, you're in big trouble. So people who are trying to live on, you know, things like lettuce, you know, that kind of idea, you just don't have sustenance for your brain to keep going. And I went down to the Betty Ford Center in California and talked to their dieticians. And what we found is that things like sugar can give you a quick rise and then drop. Things and fruit juice, orange juice. That's what they give people when they have diabetes and they have a hypoglycemic episode, the blood sugar drop. And then if you have white rice, you'll have a rise and it levels out, but in an hour, it drops again. An hour and a half, you're hungry again. That's called Chinese restaurant syndrome. Sometimes people do that. And then if you start to whole grains, your blood sugar levels out more. But the ones that are real superstars are the legumes, the beans, peas, lentils. So they will really, really help. And tofu is like that too, because they have carbohydrates, which we could convert to glucose for our brain. But the delivery is very slow. So that really makes a difference. So I, I make sure that I have a some of those things. Like I had hemp seeds in my smoothie, but usually by in a couple hours I'll need to eat. And I have some little tofu cubes that I will just snack on. They're kind of like potato chips, except that it's protein. They're just marinated and put in the air fryer. I find that I need to do that. And my husband knows that when my blood sugar drops, he's got to get me into a restaurant or get some food, you know, and he knows the clues. So it was just interesting. It's like, you got to learn how your car works, you know?

Loretta

Yeah. What do you think about the fact that people, different people react differently to different foods? So for one person, they can have a bowl of porridge and that will really spike their blood sugar, but someone else can have it and they're absolutely fine.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. And Brenda Davis, my co-author, she could eat three meals a day. Her blood sugar doesn't go down between meals. I need more like three meals and snacks. So I leave part of my food out for the snack. And I've even had a client, he was in a contest with somebody else, and he could eat one meal a day. and he could still maintain his blood glucose. So it's like how we have different eyebrows and hair and shapes of faces and that we have slightly different pancreas, we have different organs. And so it's interesting for people to learn how their individual system works. So it's not like there's a rule, you have to do it this way. It's more like to start seeing, okay, my blood glucose drops at this time, I shouldn't be following one of these intermittent fasting type guidelines, which work for some people, because I will get really strange if I don't eat.

Sharon

So things like sugar now, it is seen as the kind of the demon, you know, processed sugar. Would you have like, you know, because they do sort of say some chocolates are actually can be quite healthy for you. What's your thing on sugar?

Vesanto Melina

I really like sugar, but I don't, I keep it in a cupboard way up and put it into something once in a while. And even I've found things like stevia can affect my blood sugar. I just found that out lately. So I just have to eat real food. Whole Foods every once in a while and go more in that direction. And my co-author, Brenda Davis, is really an inspiration because she'd just grab an apple if she needed to. I thought apples are pretty boring, but they actually really help. Yeah, they do.

Loretta

Yeah. And going back to your alcoholic family, So did you say you used to drink a lot? Do you drink now? And have you helped your family with their drinking?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, no, I haven't for 20 over. Over 20 years, yeah. I haven't. I went to AA and I don't still go, but I just know I can't do that. And my other sister, the one, stunt woman one, she has a very similar pattern. Now her other sister, her thing is more sugar, so that she has to be careful of. So it seemed different for the three of us. But I have worked at addiction treatment centers with indigenous people and with women who were alcoholics and many, many of them were also diabetics. Like I'd find that 3/4 of the class, this is an addiction treatment center, were also pre-diabetic or diabetic or had that in their family. So I think there's a real correlation here. It's just your pancreas is a certain way and you have to take care of that.

Sharon

So you think maybe the sort of the craving of the alcohol is what can, it's the same as craving for sugar, which can tip you over into diabetes. Yeah, the alcohol is full of sugar, isn't it? And I know when I used to drink, we gave up back 10 years ago, and when I first, when I used to go through periods of not drinking, just say for a month, I had become addicted to chocolate every night because I was craving sugar.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so what we have now in the evenings grapefruit segments and banana, kind of a mixture of that and that can get me through the evening. Now some other people have a rule, no food after 6 o'clock. I can't do that rule. But some people can do it and it really works for them.

Sharon

Whatever you're doing, Vesanto, it's definitely working for you. It's been amazing talking to you today. And really, I just want to tell people to go out and buy the book, Plant Powered Protein, because it's full of all the science and that's what I loved about it. And it's also a guide and also it's got amazing recipes in there as well.

Vesanto Melina

Thank you. Yeah, we had every recipe we had to get five stars on it. We've got a team of testers, 6 testers.

Sharon

Oh, it's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. Some are good cooks, some aren't, and we had to get them all thinking this is a great recipe.

Sharon

Yeah, some really good recipes in there as well.

Loretta

Yeah, and we're going to get the, we've got the book for the Detox Barn Retreat so people can look at it and read it because I think when anyone else asks me about protein, I'll just say, I'll get your book and I'll put it in their face and say, read this.

Vesanto Melina

Well, thanks for what you're doing. It's wonderful and the fun you're having with it.

Loretta

Yeah, pleasure. And thank you so much for all your work and keep it up and may you just keep going because you're amazing.

Vesanto Melina

Well, I hope to be 118. Do you? And have a lot of old vegans around.

Sharon

I thought you were going to say, I hope to be 118 and have a lot of sex.

Vesanto Melina

I don't know why. I'll see about that one. Lots of old vegans.

Sharon

Yeah, lots of old vegans. Yeah, absolutely.

Vesanto Melina

That's right.

Sharon

Thank you so much.

Loretta

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, review us. It really helps, doesn't it, Sharon? Yeah, it really helps. With the algorithms. We don't always. We have no idea. But we're single mums.

Sharon

And, you can be part of making us huge.

Loretta

Yes, make us huge.

Sharon

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Loretta

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