Transcript

Meg

Hi, I'm Meg. Welcome to PlantFit Meg. Welcome back to the channel. I'm thrilled today to have a really exciting guest on the channel. Vesanto Melina is here to talk plant-based protein with us. She has her new book, Plant Powered Protein, that she co-authored with Brenda Davis and Corey Davis. And if you're unfamiliar with Vesanto Melina, I'm sure many of you know who she is and are familiar with her work. But just in case you're unfamiliar, I'll get into her bio on what she is all about and all the amazing work that she has done. So Vesanto is an amazing plant-based dietitian, a nutrition consultant, an academic instructor, and a sought-after speaker at conferences worldwide. She's the lead author of the last position paper on vegetarian diets for the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. She has co-authored 14 books, 14, amazing, including nine with her writing partner, Brenda Davis. Together, they've written plant-based nutrition classics such as Becoming Vegan, the Comprehensive Edition, and the Express Edition. And as I mentioned, her latest is Plant-Bared Protein, an amazing resource for anyone curious about protein, wondering about it, and wanting to get into a plant-based diet. So hello, Vesanto, and welcome to the show.

Vesanto Melina

Thank you, Meg. Yeah, my pleasure.

Meg

Thank you so much for being here. I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you and chat about how people can get plant-based protein into their lives and make it work and keep it simple and be successful on a plant-based diet.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah. We weren't going to do a book about plant protein. Our publisher asked us to and we said, we don't need to do that because you easily get enough protein on a plant-based diet. And he said, well, that's what people ask about all the time. And I think he was right because our book has actually shot to #1 on Amazon in the sustainability category.

Meg

That's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

And very high in the health categories. And it's really impressive. So it was like the right thing at the right time.

Meg

That's fabulous. Congratulations. And yeah, I was going to ask you sort of what inspired the book, but that's a wonderful answer to that question before I even asked it. But, you know, people are kind of clamoring for this information and wanted that resource and that guide. And the numbers are showing that that's true.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. And when we got into it, we found it was really fascinating. Like, it was really, really fun.

Meg

I love that everything's science-based and evidence-based and it's not just kind of guessing or throwing things around. It's scientific and it's a great resource that way.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah.

Meg

And keeping it simple for people too. It's not too wordy or too complex either.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, that's what I like because I do the research in a lot of depth and our references, the website's plantpoweredprotein.com. with a dash between plant and powered. And we also have a references page.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

So our publisher wanted us to keep the book slim.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

But I like to keep things simple. I'm kind of a Johnny Cash kind of person for writing. And so I like to have like one and two syllable words that keep it simple. And then my co-authors, Brendan, Corey, are much more long words and complex. And we actually end up with quite a nice mix, a blend of these different, you know, because even health professionals, even doctors who use our books quite a lot, like to have it simple, you know, they like to have it just straightforward and here's... For sure.

Meg

Yeah, it keeps it nice and easy and kind of a light, easier read. And then also to relay the information to other people, if other people are sort of questioning you or in the case of healthcare providers, if they're... relaying information to patients and clients and things like that, it makes it easier to kind of just take the information and relay it just as it is, rather than having to have something really scientific and then sort of trying to break it down. It's already broken down for them. So that's great. So I also, I always like to ask people sort of how they got started eating a plant-based diet and how long have you been vegan?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, my plant-based, my vegetarian origin was from India.

Meg

Oh, cool.

Vesanto Melina

I'm actually quite old. I'm 81.

Meg

81, yay. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

81.

Meg

Awesome. I love it.

Vesanto Melina

You know, I'm wanting to help people get old and be in good health in these years. But when I was in India, I found that the culture was very, very supportive to going plant-based. And it was... was just so interesting to learn to be vegetarian in a culture that was used to that. So when I came back from India, I spent four years there, actually. Oh, wow. I learned a lot, traveled. I just had a really interesting time. And I had been teaching university before. So going to India was kind of learning about the other side of the world and culture. And I started doing courses through the University of British Columbia, where I had been teaching on the faculty sometimes, and to the public, and then to dieticians, just about how to do this. And that led to our first book. And then when I was writing our first book, which was called Becoming Vegetarian, I did a chapter called Without Dairy, because of course, India's vegetarian does include ghee And, you know, different cheeses that are.

Meg

Yeah, of course.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. And, and when I wrote this chapter called Without Dairy, I thought, oh, I could do that. And so I did it. That was 30 years ago. So the first, first instance for vegetarian was 45 years ago. Wow. And vegan was 30 years ago. And then, so I'd started because of culture, not because of the usual reasons that people go plant-based. And then I started learning about the animal issues.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

Like boar bashing, where they smash pigs on the snow to get into their truck to go to the slaughterhouse, which they are not inclined to want to do.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And that really was troubling to me. And then I started learning more about all the health reasons, which are mounting and mounting and mounting to go more plant-based. And then in more recent times, we're learning about the environmental reasons, which are bringing a lot of men on board. So it's just been a growing incidence of these. reasons and backup for choosing more plant-based.

Meg

Yeah, so many reasons, right? You start with one thing and then you kind of start to peel the onion and find these different layers and different reasons for doing it. And that's amazing that you've been vegetarian for 45 years and vegan for 30 and obviously thriving and still working and doing all these amazing things. That's awesome. I love that.

Vesanto Melina

It is fun. Yeah, this year I'll be speaking in, I think, Philadelphia at the Vegan Society, Manhattan to all the New York school staff oh nice and then in New Jersey and then we'll go to Brazil.

Meg

Wow lots of big.

Vesanto Melina

Plans lots of you know people are interested in this topic all over the world all ages all just all sorts of people.

Meg

Yeah, that's so exciting. I love that. I was going to ask you about the inspiration for the book, but you already sort of mentioned that, your publisher actually said, hey, like we keep getting these questions and this would be a good thing to write about. It's something people want to know. I think sometimes when people talk about protein, they don't even necessarily know what it is or why it's important. It's just kind of been drilled into us that, eat meat, meat is protein, eat it, it's healthy for you, it'll make you grow big and strong. But let's kind of break it down for people. What is protein and why is it important for us?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, we have these macronutrients that provide calories, and these include carbohydrate, which is a very good thing to have when it's complex carbohydrate. Of course, carbs get bad rap because 90% of what people eat are the very refined, like the sugar and the white flour and so on. But carbs are very valuable and they actually keep our brain running, but they're just simple little molecules. And then there's fat. And we do have essential fats that can drive on a lot of calories. And then the complex, really complex molecules are the protein, and they're long chains of amino acids and all convoluted, and they're in a certain shape, and they do jobs related to their shape and their length and exactly what amino acids are in this mix. So protein are quite a separate category and we certainly require them. We do require them for muscle building and they're an important part of bone. Like bone has a protein matrix with minerals in it. And then we need it for enzymes, for antibodies, for certain vitamins, but it's just It's used in so many different ways to protect us, to build us, to communicate. There's transfer proteins that could send messages. And so it's a great list of the different proteins that we have. And we need to build everyone exactly. So of course, we need the amino acids.

Meg

Yeah, all the building blocks of the proteins, right?

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah. And then people wonder, you're probably going to ask this one, get all the amino acids from plants.

Meg

Yeah, that's a big, big question for a lot of people. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And it turns out that every one of the amino acids is actually from plants. Like when you- Amazing. If you were looking at what amino acids are in beef, That cow ate plants and that's how it got the amino acids. Every one of them, every single essential amino acid that we required. So it turns out that we can get every amino acid that we need.

Meg

Which is amazing and wonderful information that people need to hear because so often if you tell someone you're vegan or you're eating a plant-based diet, one of the first questions you get is, well, where do you get your protein, right? And there's just this huge misconception that protein is just from meat and just from eating animal products. It seemed, protein seems to be the one macronutrient that's really emphasized and prioritized and it's marketed heavily. Why do you think that is?

Vesanto Melina

Well, we've had a history of, in the depression, of course, people hardly got enough food and there was a glorification of meat, a chicken in every pot. That was something really sought after because people were struggling so much just to get the foods they needed. And then we had some interesting research in about the 1950s, and I've been around for a long time looking at research, and I remember all these rat studies that were done, and they would give a weanling rat that's four months, four weeks old, different foods and see what they thrived on. They'd only give it one food, so it wasn't the way people actually eat. And they did better on cheese and meat. So they want, they doubled their weight in four weeks and they could grow fur all over their body.

Meg

Which is wonderful for the rat.

Vesanto Melina

Wonderful for the rat.

Meg

What about humans?

Vesanto Melina

Humans want to double their weight in four weeks. Well, I haven't met any that did, but, and they don't want to grow fur all over their body, which takes certain sulfur amino acids. And so we got this misconception because we were doing rat studies. And we actually have struggled to translate that into human studies. In fact, some of those protein efficiency ratio concepts are still used in Canada as ways of assessing protein quality, which we should be way beyond that. But we really have trouble with how to assess protein quality. We're gradually evolving, but our scientific measure that are the standards haven't quite caught up because we don't have a perfect one yet. But we do have some where you measure what protein goes in and when you can check what is coming through the intestine, just at a certain stage in the intestine, you can see how much was absorbed. And so that type of protein, we only have a limited data on it, but it's showing that plant protein is doing just fine when it comes to supplying everything. We absorb it well, we get the nutrients and so on.

Meg

Yeah, that's great. And that's wonderful information for people because I do still hear from time to time people talking about protein quality and maybe that animal protein is of a higher quality and is better absorbed and plant protein is maybe of a lower quality and not as good. So can you kind of speak further to that and where that comes from and if that's accurate or not?

Vesanto Melina

And it's lucky because I've evolved through all these different stages. And I remember in the early 70s when Francis Moore Lappe wrote Diet for a Small Planet, and she had the idea if you ate beans and grains, and beans were a bit long on this amino acid, and grains were a bit long on this other amino acid, but short on the one, that you have this perfect combination. And then people scrambled around seeing how much chickpeas they should have with their brown rice. Then after 10 years, Francis Moore Lappe said, oops, we didn't really have to do it. We didn't have to get our slide rules and our calculators and use. We find that with just a mix of plant foods, we are doing fine. And every plant food has all the amino acids. They have them in slightly different proportions, but if you get a mix, as you should on your food guide, like we're not like the rat that only gets lumped down with one thing and that's it. But if you get a mix of foods, you're just doing fine for protein. So we don't actually find protein deficiency. I'm not plant eaters or in North America, really.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Unless people are very short for calories, like if they're anorexic or something.

Meg

So what is the difference between animal and plant protein then if people are sort of concerned about making the switch or have just kind of started into a plant-based diet? Is there a big difference? Does our body know the difference? Is it... Is there a big difference between the protein that comes from animals versus the protein that comes from plants? And are there other factors, other nutrients or other macros or other things that are in those items in animal foods or plant foods that are beneficial or detrimental?

Vesanto Melina

Well, when you absorb a protein, you break it down into the amino acids. And then when they're absorbed, your body has no idea whether this amino acid had come originally from a plant, but via a cow's flesh.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

Or if it had come directly from the plant. It's just the same amino acid. So that is no different at all. Now, that's about the protein, but the protein... foods come packaged quite differently. So meat itself has a lot of components. We used to think of saturated fat as being a harmful thing for heart disease, which is still true, and for type 2 diabetes and so on. But we're finding there are components like TMAO that is produced when we eat the meat-based diet and doesn't happen when we're eating the plant protein foods. And that's linked with cardiovascular disease. There's new 5G, a component that's linked with cancer that's in meat, not in plant foods at all. So there are quite big differences in the actual foods and what they deliver.

Meg

Right. So it's not necessarily about the protein or the protein quality itself, because those are just broken down into the amino acids in your body, but it's just sort of the packaging of what else it's coming along with.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah.

Meg

Okay, sounds good. So we often hear in the plant-based community that as long as you're eating sufficient calories, you'll be getting enough protein. And as long as you're eating a varied diet, you're good to go. You sort of touched on that a little bit. Is that an accurate statement?

Vesanto Melina

Well, you could eat... pop and potato chips.

Meg

True.

Vesanto Melina

That's vegan food.

Meg

True.

Vesanto Melina

I haven't met anybody that's doing that.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

You know, but you could, you could do that and be vegan. It turns out that most people on plant-based diets are trying to sort it out, you know, and get, get a good balance. And by the way, on our plantpoweredprotein.com website, we do have a food guide link on there. And so people can look and see what's the good balance of like vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts and seeds, and then the real high protein delivers, the legumes, the beans, peas, lentils, peanut butter, tofu, that kind of thing. So it's good to have a kind of balance. And Canada's food guide is actually very close to this guide.

Meg

Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. I was so excited to see the new guide when it came out. Yeah. Yeah, it was very different from the previous iteration and emphasized plant foods even more. So that was really exciting to see.

Vesanto Melina

It sure did. I mean, scientists are just recognizing this and our government bodies have been very influenced by the animal products industries. I mean, they wanted to know, farmers wanted to keep working, they wanted to keep making money and so on. And so we've heavily subsidized these foods. I think burgers would be about $30 a pound.

Meg

Wow.

Vesanto Melina

All the subsidies, by some of the calculations that are out there, they'd certainly be a lot more expensive if we didn't have the subsidies. And dairy is very subsidized. So it's kind of, unfortunate, and I hope we'll be shifting in a different direction so that we'd be subsidizing if we were going to subsidize foods, plant foods, organic foods, this kind of thing that are really supporting health. But we're moving along and Health Canada has actually been making a good transition.

Meg

Yeah, it'd be great if we could incentivize those dairy farmers and those people in those industries to kind of make shifts over to plant-based productions or to make changes. But I'm sure that's much easier said than done and very optimistic.

Vesanto Melina

No, in the United States, half of the dairy farmers have gone out of business.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

And there's been Miyoko's, you know, who makes the cashew cheeses. She has been working in that area to help those farmers earn a livelihood growing plant foods because they have the land, they have some of the resources, the interest.

Meg

That's amazing.

Vesanto Melina

There weren't less cows because they all have got ended up in the factory farms, which just got bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, huger.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

But and they're the ones getting the subsidies, of course, these big factory farms. But the evolution is happening in Canada too. You know, small farms are struggling.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

So it is good that we're shifting and people are shifting over to different kinds of production.

Meg

Yeah. Yeah, things are changing for sure. And it takes time for things to make those changes and those shifts and those evolutions, but we are seeing it happen, which is great.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah.

Meg

So with protein, is it possible to get too much protein? We kind of addressed not getting enough, but is it possible to overdo it and just eat too much protein that would create problems for people.

Vesanto Melina

It is, and we're finding it with meeting populations. It can be hard on your kidneys. The kidneys, we need a certain amount of protein, and that's easily accomplished, plant foods or animal products. Now, if you get too much, your body can use the protein for carbohydrates, which are very essential for running your brain. You need at least 150 grams a day of carbohydrates. And so it can lop off the nitrogen group and convert the amino acids and convert the protein into that would be fuel for your brain and for energy use. But that is work and the kidneys can struggle at that point. So we find that some meat eaters are eating too much protein and that causes problems. Now, when we're talking about an elite athlete, they are using more protein, maybe to build muscle or something like that, but it doesn't run into problems with the plant protein area.

Meg

Okay, good to know. Good to know. Do we need to track our protein intake to ensure that we're getting enough and that we're not overdoing it? Or do you think that there's sort of a different way of doing that? Like, do people need to use tracking apps and things? Do you recommend that, or do you recommend sort of a different method and way of doing that?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I do consultations with people. My website's nutrispeak.com and look at the consultations area. And what I do is a nutritional analysis using a program called the Food Processor by ESHA. And it's rather complex and it keeps updated. And I find that it keeps a very good record of exactly what people are eating. So sometimes if they're interested, you know, I've had a few clients that were almost orthorexic, like they tried to be so perfect that they could be borderline nutrients. And so we can track that kind of thing. Now, I haven't found too little protein except with people who are on kind of fruitarian raw food diets.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

Because of all the food groups, fruit is the one that's less than 10% calories from protein. And the other food groups, you know, even lettuce, like if you ate a wheelbarrow full of protein, you know? Yeah. And you get protein from grains. Half the world's protein comes from grains. You know, if you get a sherpa carrying your pack in Nepal, they'll be eating millet or rice. They'll have a little bit of lentils sometimes, but, so that's a very important source. But the nuts and seeds are helpful for some people and they provide other nutrients. And then the legumes, the beans, peas, lentils, they provide significant amounts of protein. So I find sometimes they need to help people figure out, okay, how do you actually get beans into your diet? Maybe you had some portable dish that you made as a child you didn't like, and you think, oh, I don't like beans, but there are actually 20 kinds of beans. And there's all the soy foods and all kinds of things. And if people explore a bit and explore the cultures of the world, they'll find some that are absolutely yummy.

Meg

For sure. Yeah. And I think sometimes the texture of beans can kind of throw people off. So maybe starting people with lentils or just other options, you know, tofu or soy milk, like other things that can be providing those, that protein source and the nutrient source, but maybe, Yeah, there we go.

Vesanto Melina

It's a hurry in a hurry. Beautiful diabetes book. And this is an interesting book to beyond our plant protein one. It's even for people who don't have diabetes. These are foods that have no added oil and no added sugar. So they're, they're good for weight management, which I know some people who are listening to your podcasts are interested in keeping their weight, you know, keeping slim and.

Meg

Yeah, absolutely.

Vesanto Melina

So I've really been interested in keeping it simple while you get enough protein.

Meg

Yeah. So in terms of how much people, how much protein people actually need, how much does the average adult actually require in a day? And what does that sort of look like if you break it down into like what your plate might look like or what a day of eating might look like?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, I find that it's good to try and have something like legumes, beans, peas, lentils. This might be astounding. Three times a day.

Meg

Three times a day. Nice.

Vesanto Melina

That does not mean a big bowl of beans.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

Lunch and supper. What it could be, and this is what my husband has, is peanut butter on your toast.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

He loves that.

Meg

And that's so simple. The easiest thing you can do.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's right. Or you could have soy milk in your, whenever you have cereal or granola or something like that, or, or, or, and some coffee, you know, just in a mix of things. Those are both legume type foods. And then for lunch, you could have a bean salad. I've actually got some here that's from our, just having had some of this.

Meg

Yeah. Oh, you're selling it?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, right. Oh, that's okay. And also, another thing to have is, this is, A quinoa salad. Yeah, and quinoa is a grain that's actually quite high in protein. So with quinoa, one of the favorite things there is that it cooks in 15 minutes.

Meg

Yeah, which is nice.

Vesanto Melina

So do the red lentils. So this can be just as easy as anything. And with quinoa, you can add a little bit of lime juice, perhaps some toasted sesame oil, salt and pepper, maybe herbs, and then some cut up veggies if you want to make it pretty. And that could be very simple. The multicolored bean salad that we have that I showed you, it's in our plant powered protein book too. It's one that I keep a lot because especially, for example, in the summer, you can just make a big bowl of it. And it's so easy. You just open three cans of beans or two cans of beans. You could even have one and add some colored veggies. You could see the red pepper, some corn from a can. Like it can just be really easy. Perhaps some frozen green beans, a little bit of a dressing. And we tend not to use such oil-based dressings, maybe a bit of toasted sesame oil, but just some lime juice, some salt, pepper, some herbs. And it is just sitting there.

Meg

Yeah, it's just ready for you. It's waiting for you to eat.

Vesanto Melina

All the time. And the other thing that I like to eat is a salad. So this is just lettuce. We actually grow it in our rooftop greenhouse. Oh, that's great. And I call it five days salad. Because if you don't put in things like tomatoes and red pepper, it really will last for five days when you've got romaine and you could have some other greens in it, you could have a bit of red cabbage for color. And so that can be ready. If you've got a little container like Tupperware or something, you know, that will sit in the fridge, it'll be ready in an instant. You walk in the door, you're starving, and it's just ready. And the types of dressings that we use, this is also from our Plant-Powered Protein book. This is a lemon tahini dressing, has no oil in it. But the fat that's there is tahini and it delivers calcium. So it's a good bone strengthener. So that can be a simple, so a meal could be, I like to have ones that have definitely some legumes, lots of salad, lettuce, that kind of thing. A dressing that delivers nutrients, not just oil and sugar, like some of them... And then grains are kind of optional. People that are really wanting to limit their calories can go low on the grains. You will get some carbohydrates from the beans, but that's the one to cut back on. Or if you're an athlete or you're high energy person, you might have lots of things like the quinoa or rice or potatoes or something like that. So the meal kind of has like three components, the beans, salad-y stuff with the dressing and the grains.

Meg

Yeah, that sounds wonderful. And I love how you gave so many tips for keeping it simple and really accessible for people and just keeping it easy. Because I think a lot of times, especially people who are just starting out with a plant-based diet, they're like, I don't even know what to eat. Like what? If meat isn't the center of my plate anymore, what do I do? And how do I prepare it? And how do I make it delicious, right? So I love that the books provide so many lovely recipes. And then you giving some great tips there for keeping it really simple and just really easy. I really, that's really great.

Vesanto Melina

Some menus in there, by the way.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Also show through the day. and give people reassurance. Yeah, you're getting protein here. Look, you're fine.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Here, you're fine. You get protein here, you're fine.

Meg

Yeah, and for someone who's a little more... maybe concerned about their protein intake or that they're getting the nutrients they need, maybe following something like that as a guide for a little while just to kind of get used to eating a plant-based diet if you're just starting out or if maybe you've been into the junk food vegan situation for a while and you want to shift gears and get into a healthier place, that can be a good way to start and a good resource for just knowing that you're getting the nutrients you need and getting enough protein and everything. What are the highest sources of plant protein? If someone is looking at really increasing their protein intake, what are the sort of best sources or highest plant-based sources of protein?

Vesanto Melina

Among the legumes, and I mentioned there's 20 kinds of legumes, how many can you think of? Oh, this is putting you on the spot.

Meg

How many can I think of? Oh my goodness.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, beans, peas.

Meg

Beans, black beans, kidney beans, chickpeas, lupin beans, fava beans. What else is there? There's lentils. There's red lentils, green lentils. What else do I eat? There's so many different kinds.

Vesanto Melina

There's so many. There's all kinds of colors.

Meg

And you just check out the aisle and it's just, it's a plethora of options.

Vesanto Melina

And if you think about different cultures in Asia, they often have red beans. In Mexico, they have pinto beans. It's Spanish. So it's amazing. They're different cultures. And of course in Vancouver, which is like vegcouver.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Restaurants. People can look at happycow.net website and just find all kinds of ethnic restaurants that will introduce you to different ones. And let's see. Oh, yeah. Another, among those, peanut butter is a handy. And we don't think of that, but legumes are things that grow in pods. Yeah, they're like lentils are little funny things that look like peas in a pod when they're growing on the plant. We don't ever get.

Meg

That part of it.

Vesanto Melina

No, but they all do. And then another one, now this is the real heavy hitter, are the soy foods, which unfortunately got a bad reputation and undeserved bad reputation early on, about 15 years ago. And they're a wonderful source of protein and very versatile, very, very versatile.

Meg

Yeah. And so what about people's fear around soy and about phytoestrogens and men being kind of afraid of man ***** or being feminized in some way? Is there any truth to any of that? Can you dispel that myth and give us the real facts here about all of that?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, about oh gosh, it was maybe 20 years ago, there were two men in totally different places that ate, one of them ate 12 servings of soy a day and one ate 20 soy a day, which they must have had like free soy milk and free tofu or something that they could eat infinite amounts.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Or they throw them on to get strong. There were different ages too, 19 and 60. And after a year, they did develop man *****. But you shouldn't be eating 12 or 20 servings of any single food like carrots.

Meg

Exactly.

Vesanto Melina

You know, it just doesn't work.

Meg

The problem?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, the problem, like the poor old rat got delivered one thing, but we shouldn't be. So anyway, at the end of the year, they went to their doctors and their doctors independently said, you should not be eating this way. The doctors fortunately figured that out pretty quickly. And so they went back to having normal, not man ***** getting burned into a normal diet. Now, those rumors were propagated by in price by the meat industry to make us think that soy was bad, but it isn't actually. And then we had questions because there are isoflavones in soy, which are kind of like estrogen. And we thought, gee, maybe those are affecting our hormones. But it turns out they They're sufficiently different from estrogen, the isoflavones, that they can't do the job that estrogen does of actually promoting cancer in later life. And they actually block some of the estrogen from being absorbed and used. So they get in the way. And so it's actually turned out, rather than being a disadvantage in terms of breast cancer and prostate cancer, to be an advantage. When kids get soy foods when they're little, they turn out to have less breast cancer and less prostate cancer when they're old. And also, if people have breast cancer, it lessens the likelihood of what and they're trying to reverse it. They're in better health when they do include some soy at that point. And for men, prostate. So these are some quite recent studies that have been done. And so we find that soy is actually an advantage overall. Now it's particularly high in protein, but if people are allergic to soy, you know, it's one of the big hitters for allergies, as are dairy and eggs, of course, and fish. We eat lots of foods, but it's in with the top eight. It's okay to use any of the other legumes like lentils. Yeah.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

We also can get a fair amount of protein from hemp seeds and some of the seeds, pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, these are all protein.

Meg

Yeah, I think sometimes people forget about seeds. They're very focused on like the beans and the soy products and seeds kind of just end up forgotten about, I think. But yeah, seeds are wonderful. And I'm sure there are other seeds that pack a punch as well.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah, that the pumpkin seeds turned out to be pretty good. And I'm glad they're starting to make some cheeses out of the seeds because they're grown. They're not so much water users as some of the nuts are like, you know, but they can make really good cheeses. So our technology is evolving to do some pretty nice products. And it's not actually the milk that makes a cheese, it's the fermentation. So if you start out with a plant-based substrate and then inoculate that, as they do with the milk and to make cheese, you can end up with some really good cheeses.

Meg

Yeah, that's really interesting. I haven't, I don't think I've really tried cheeses made out of seeds before. So that would be a whole new adventure.

Vesanto Melina

There's just one made in Ontario.

Meg

Oh, nice.

Vesanto Melina

That is turning out to be quite good. It's quite successful. Yeah.

Meg

That's great. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about athletes. So how do protein requirements vary from sort of the average adult to someone who's, you know, and engaged in athletic pursuits or a professional athlete?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, for people, our official recommendation is 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. And that's actually per kilogram healthy body weight. So if somebody was way overweight, they wouldn't need 0.8 grams per kilogram of their actual weight, but of their, what they think their weight should be. if they were having an optimal weight. And then when we go more plant-based, we suggest a slight increase to 0.9 grams per kilogram. And then for athletes, who are actually building muscle, we suggest higher amounts, of course, like 1.2 or 1.5 grams, just depending. And that's why they're actually adding muscle. Now, if somebody's just going out and doing exercise on the weekend, you know, doing hiking and going to fitness classes during the week, that kind of thing, you don't need higher amounts of protein. That just... helps you retain your muscle mass and keep it strong and you don't need these higher amounts. But athletes could need higher amounts.

Meg

Right, and particularly if someone's trying to build muscle.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. That's their goal. When you're actually adding it. Now, if somebody's a gymnast, they want to have strong muscles in the beginning, but they're not wanting to bulk up the way a bodybuilder is.

Meg

True. so things will shift and vary a little bit depending on their chosen sport or depending on how active they are and just what that looks like. And obviously they can touch base with a professional and get more individualized recommendations that way.

Vesanto Melina

That's right, yeah.

Meg

For sure. Another thing I wanted to ask you is what does the science say and what is your take on plant-based meats and protein powders? And do you have a difference of opinion based on if someone is just sort of the average adult versus maybe an older adult or an athlete? What's your thought there?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, you asked about the veggie meats. That's one category. Now, if we look at one time, I did a cooking class with 10 kinds of burgers.

Meg

Oh, wonderful.

Vesanto Melina

Like, there's a lot out there. And if you look at the labels, you'll see that it's very diverse what they are made of. Some of them are pretty much whole foods packaged into some nice little patty that is very tasty. And then we have burgers that have had a fair amount of technology to create them. Now, people think why, I've actually been asked, why would somebody make a meat-like substitute? You know.

Meg

Oh, right. Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

But the thing is that we do not go out and bite a cow.

Meg

No, we do not.

Vesanto Melina

It is taken from that and then packaged into a human friendly form. So what we do with these veggie meats is package the plant foods into a form that, you know, you can pick up well with your hands if it's a burger with a button type of thing, or you can use to make lasagna, you know, that kind of thing.

Meg

Exactly.

Vesanto Melina

And so they're very handy. And people are at different places for how they want to use them or would use them. Like they can be really handy, one that's made to be very neat, like, what are some of the ones that you've tried?

Meg

The Beyond Burger or the Impossible. I think the Impossible is the one that's a bit more meat-like and a bit more maybe realistic too...

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, yeah. And so it will actually drip something like blood, but it isn't really blood. Yeah. So, but sometimes that can be... very appealing if you have your father-in-law over and he would not want to eat anything vegetarian for sure on there but when he tries this burger he'll go huh Well, that's not too bad. I could have that once in a while. Yeah, if you serve those when I come over, it's all right.

Meg

Yeah, exactly.

Vesanto Melina

Then there's some, like the Beyond Burger, that are not. That one was made more for health reasons than to simulate meat very closely. So they had different objectives in the different ones.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

And some are like field roast kind of thing, or they're made with different ingredients. And so it's just kind of fun to look at them. And I find that people are in different places. Like kids at school often want to have a slice of something or want to have a hot dog when everybody else is. And they get their hot dog that is not a class one carcinogen.

Meg

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

Which is good. What a big plus.

Meg

Yeah. Amazing.

Vesanto Melina

So it's unfortunate that these cured meats have gone into such disrepute now because they're linked in. They're in the same category, according to the cancer associations, that they're in the same category, and the World Health Organization, that they're in the same category as Roundup and cigarette smoking. The cured meats. one of the last things I ate like in the 70s was bacon which is really good.

Meg

Yeah, people love bacon.

Vesanto Melina

I did too now luckily, they're making some veggie bacons which not class one carcinogens but it's unfortunate that these cured meats um which tasted so appealing. They're not health foods by a long shot.

Meg

Yeah, for sure.

Vesanto Melina

So that's about the veggie meats. They can have a place and then some people, a lot of the clients I have want to really be more whole foodsy and know how to do that. And my husband actually, he likes really vegetables and whole foods and that kind of thing.

Meg

Yeah, it kind of depends where people are in their journey. And if, for example, like you said, serving something where there are omnivores present and kind of getting them sort of on board a little bit, at least when they're in your household, right, to eat something plant-based. And so, yeah, those items do sort of serve a purpose and have a place. And I love your party with testing them all out and little. Yeah. because that's a fun thing to do, fun little adventure. So what about protein powder and sort of protein supplementation? What's your take on that?

Vesanto Melina

Well, one of the interesting thing is that there's these branched chain amino acids that help us build muscle. And we find that they can be quite easily reached on plant-based diets, like for athletes. When they're eating lots of whole foods and they're eating soy foods, you can reach good levels of the branched chain amino acids and particularly leucine that we want for muscle building. But you could use the protein powders and look for one that says branch chain amino acids, and it's probably from soy, could have something with pea protein. And then when you're a senior, it's kind of an interesting story because some of the seniors lose muscle mass, they get sarcopenia, and they're very frail and don't eat very much. So I've found that you could have those protein powders or a senior that had a kind of limited diet, you know, put it into their smoothie or something like that because they're just not eating that much. One of the things that I've done, this is another little thing to show you, is it's marinated tofu.

Meg

Oh, nice. I love some marinated tofu.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, and I just have it always in the fridge, and then I put it in the air fryer. And it's marinated in a recipe in our plant-powered protein book that just has in it low sodium tamari. We tried the low sodium because it gets really salty otherwise. And some rice vinegar, a bit of toasted sesame oil, some ginger, and some garlic. It just sits in there.

Meg

Sounds so good.

Vesanto Melina

It is really good.

Meg

And then?

Vesanto Melina

Scoop out the little cubes, or it could be little you know, fingers, put them in the air fryer. And we got an air fryer by accident almost. Yeah.

Meg

Oh, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. Because I didn't, you know, I didn't really thought about that. But it makes it really easy. One of the things is that you can put it in there, put your little cubes in, set it to 14 minutes or whatever. and go and do something else and forget about it, forget you even had something going.

Meg

Right.

Vesanto Melina

And it just does itself and you get little cubes. And I find that as a senior myself who wants to keep my protein intake higher, these make really good little snacks. But instead of eating something like a potato chip or something rather useless nutritionally, you get these little protein cubes.

Meg

And that's a great tip.

Vesanto Melina

There's also, like the top picture here has the tofu fingers, the same thing, but breaded a bit.

Meg

And so it kind of... That sounds great.

Vesanto Melina

Or nutritional yeast or whatever.

Meg

Yeah. Speaking of seniors, many people just kind of assume that as you get older, your body starts to break down. It's just kind of inevitable that you get more tired and you have more injuries and you develop diseases and just things kind of go downhill as you age. And I'd love your perspective on aging in a way that is, you know, preventing disease and maintaining muscle mass. And how do we how do we do that? You're doing it. You're living it.

Vesanto Melina

I am doing it. Yeah. And I'm helping other people do it too. They're interested in this. I would like to get a group of like real healthy old people around. And actually I do one of the keys. We do fitness classes Monday, Thursday and Friday from about 1130 to 1215 online that we started before COVID and still doing. And I'm the host for it. I don't teach the fitness class, but our teacher that we had before COVID has stayed with us and we're doing these fitness classes. So that's an important thing. And we also walk around Trout Lake every morning. My husband and I do other, you know, things like yoga. So try and do pretty close to an hour of exercise every day, you know, including also things like gardening and carrying things around. And so that's one key. Then with food, following that food guide that we have on the Plant Powered Protein site and our different websites. The other thing is that when we are, well, I found since I was 60, things would start to go a little bit, you know, I'd get a back pain thing or something. I'd go to a physio and I could catch things and have them not go very far and get them turned around. Now, when people don't do that, then it can just get worse and worse and worse. Right. We can have slightly high cholesterol levels and, you know, have that move into something. I've had quite a number of clients that have pre-diabetes and are smart enough to catch it at that stage and learn how to go. People think of sugar, but it's also cutting down on the fat intake. That can make a big difference because the belly fat that people develop is where the origins of disease and decay are really. Yeah. So if you start catching things when you get to be kind of retirement age, it can really make a big difference. So I'm hoping to go to 118.

Meg

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

I needed to go with my sister. Yeah. Anyway, so I've got about two thirds of the way there.

Meg

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that so much. And I love the sense of hope that you bring to it too. It's not just like, oh, I'm older now, so I can just, you know, sit around and give up and like not take care of my health and not, you do something about it. I have a bit of control here. I do have a bit of power here. And I think sometimes people just don't think they have any power to make changes or to do something healthy for themselves that'll really make an impact. And I love how you're showing through your own actions how to be, you know, a really healthy senior and really active and vibrant. And also you're helping so many people do that as well.

Vesanto Melina

But one other part of it is about sociability.

Meg

Yes, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

I live in something called Vancouver Co-Housing.

Meg

Okay.

Vesanto Melina

It's at least 33rd between Victoria and Night, and we actually have an event on June 24th. We have these meatless meetups.

Meg

Oh, cool.

Vesanto Melina

And this is a snack luck, and people can come for free, or actually they bring it to me usually, but we're having my co-author Corey Davis speak on the environment and the dietary choice and its impact on climate change. And people come and bring a little vegan snack, just something to put in, and people have snacks and we have a talk. So that's on, it's called Meatless Meetup, and people can look at that group. Some other... And you also can see what cohousing is because it's a Danish concept and we have 31 households and we have a big courtyard. We had music all through COVID because we have a number of musicians here and we also have a common house. So we have meals three times a week and you pay about five bucks. We take turns being cooks and chefs. You just cook once a month and have access to all these meals and it just brings a sense of community. You can borrow grandchildren if yours live in Nova Scotia and you live in Vancouver or something, you know, and you could help each other out. People have helped each other out when they needed to get to the hospital in the middle, you know, just all this kind of thing. So people have different kinds of communities, you know, faith-based or their walking group, their cycling group. It's just really important to keep that going, too.

Meg

Yeah, absolutely. I love that cohousing concept. That sounds really, really interesting, really fascinating, like a very different way of living. But at the same time, it kind of hearkens back perhaps to a previous way of living right that's right it's a Danish building community.

Vesanto Melina

The modern form of Village so we have a three-bedroom townhouse so one is my office here but and my husband has an office and then a bedroom but we um have a common house that has a big dining room it has a laundry facilities, so we don't have to have a washer and dryer in everybody's little house, you know?

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

We have a children's playroom. So when our grandchild comes to visit, he can go and play in the playroom and there's other kids there to all kinds of adventures. We have two guest rooms, and a teen room that's way off in the corner so they can be as noisy as they want.

Meg

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

A workshop, a business center and a yoga. So it's got all this extra stuff and you don't have to have your house so big.

Meg

Yeah, that's great. And I think it kind of speaks to the community aspect and it also speaks to sort of an energy efficiency as well, right?

Vesanto Melina

That's right. Yeah.

Meg

That's really great.

Vesanto Melina

We can post a few links other.

Meg

Yeah, I would love that. That'd be great. Yeah. And it's important for people, whether they're in a cohousing situation or whether they have, you know, a regular fitness class they go to or, you know, a walking group or like you said, a faith-based community, some kind of community building that they're interacting with other humans and being social in some way. Very, very important for everyone. And I think particularly as you as we're aging as well.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, for sure. Oh, and the meatless meetups are good for dating people.

Meg

Oh, right. There's a lot of.

Vesanto Melina

Restaurant get-togethers, probably 2 a week. like all kinds of different plant-based restaurants exploring them and you go and there's all kinds of people there or their hikes through meatless meetup.

Meg

So yeah, that's great, that's really wonderful do you have a favorite recipe from plant-powered protein?

Vesanto Melina

Oh I think it's these um little protein cubes yeah those are wonderful those are good and also this bean salad well I Actually, I like that combination of the... I always start off with the lettuce and the lemon tahini dressing because I love it so much.

Meg

Yeah, that lemon tahini dressing looks good.

Vesanto Melina

But we made it so that all our recipes in the Plant Power Protein and in that Kick Diabetes book were five-star recipes from our testers. And we have testers that were up in the Okanagan and also in San Francisco that were... would try things out and send back tweaks or suggestions or wanted it to be accessible ingredients, they taste good, all that kind of thing. So we couldn't let anything through until it reached the five star category.

Meg

Oh, that's great. That's really wonderful with the testing and having different people sort of test them out and make those little switches and tweaks to really make it as wonderful as possible, as delicious as possible. That's great. And all the recipes look amazing. I haven't had a chance to try any of them yet, but I'm very excited to give them a go, especially that peanut edamame noodle salad looks wonderful. And the gado-gado looks really delicious. And cookies. I have a sweet tooth, so I'll probably check out the cookie recipes.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, you make good ones. Yeah, really good ones.

Meg

So what's next for you, Vesanto? What projects are you working on? You mentioned at the beginning that you have some speaking engagements coming up. Is that kind of your main focus right now or what else do you have on the go?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I'm doing lots of interviews. Actually, I just had... Rip Esselstyn here yesterday.

Meg

Nice.

Vesanto Melina

He's a guy who, the son of Caldwell Esselstyn.

Meg

Of course, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And he got his whole fire hall to go plant-based, which was pretty amazing for a fireman to get his whole fire hall.

Meg

Absolutely, yeah.

Vesanto Melina

In Texas to go plant-based. And then I'll be speaking in Chilliwack on Saturday at a little vegan festival. I'm amazed that these things are popping up all over, maybe in Naimo at the end of July and probably in Victoria. But then in the fall, I'll speak in Philadelphia at the Vegan Society's headquarters, and then in New York, because the New York school system is interested. They have a vegan mayor in New York and the whole state of New York has had little veggie clips in the morning at the schools, wake up wellness messages that one of the kids would read that and they weren't, you know, telling people they had to be vegan, but they were kind of oriented towards health and plants and that kind of thing. And then I'll be speaking in at something called Pea Pod, which is to health professionals in Jersey, and then later in Brazil.

Meg

Oh, that's great. Wow, you have a lot on the go. You're very busy.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's lots of fun. And it's so heartwarming, you know, that there are people in all these different areas. that are working in different ways. Maybe it's just helping your mother, you know, get more healthy, or maybe it's getting your kids to eat healthy foods, or maybe it's, you know, getting people in a nursing home to have some options. You know, they're just people working all these different ways.

Meg

Yeah, it's really wonderful to see all the, everyone coming together as kind of like a team to connect and to create a space where we can make plant-based living easier for people and help people out in different ways with our own expertise and our own, in our own ways. So yeah, it's really wonderful. How can people connect with you? How can they kind of learn more and connect with you? Mentioned your website, Nutrispeak. Where else can people find you?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, my e-mail is my name, which is vesanto.melina, M-E-L-I-N-A, at gmail.com. So that's e-mail.

Meg

And you also have social media, correct?

Vesanto Melina

Social media.

Meg

They're on Instagram.

Vesanto Melina

I'm getting better at doing Instagram. Yeah.

Meg

I follow you. I noticed that.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, thank you. Yeah.

Meg

I'll leave all those links. That's wonderful. I'll leave all of those links in the description box below so everyone can go check out your website and they can e-mail you if they want to. They can reach out through social media. Go follow Vesanto on Instagram, guys. She's getting into a rhythm of posting more and that's really fun. Check out Plant Powered Protein. I'll have a link below, but also check out, you know, your library or your local bookshop in your area. That's always a good way to find it as well.

Vesanto Melina

Most of our books are in the public, Vancouver Public Library.

Meg

That's great. That's wonderful.

Vesanto Melina

The plant-powered one, I don't think it is in there.

Meg

Might not be yet, because it's brand.

Vesanto Melina

You can write in and say, please get it. So you can do that.

Meg

Yeah, that's a good way to do it, for sure. So I'll have all those links below so that you can further connect with Vesanto. Leave any questions in the comment section below as well. I will do my best to answer them. And if not, then I'll refer you to someone else who might know the answer.

Vesanto Melina

Meg, thank you very much for what you're doing.

Meg

Oh, thank you.

Vesanto Melina

I appreciate it. Yeah.

Meg

Thank you.

Vesanto Melina

It's good. You look so gorgeous and glowing.

Meg

Oh, thank you. You're so kind. I do my best. I've lost 80 pounds and now I'm kind of on a mission to help other people sort of lose weight, get healthy, get into plant-based eating and just live a healthier lifestyle and bring some joy into it and bring some simplicity and fun to it as well.

Vesanto Melina

Wow. What a good. good path to follow. Thank you.

Meg

Thank you so much for meeting with me and having this conversation, Vesanto. It was a lot of fun. I was thrilled to meet you at Planted Expo and get my book signed. That was great. Got the book signed by Vesanto, Corey, and Brenda as well. So it was a pleasure to meet you there and also to chat with you today and to share you and your work with my audience. I'm sure that they will love this and will connect with you further. For my viewers, thank you so much for watching and for being here. And I hope everyone's having a wonderful day and I will see you in the next video. Bye. Bye.