Dotsie Bausch

Welcome to the show, Alexandra Paul. Dotsie here. What's up, Alexandra Paul?

Alexandra Paul

Everything's good. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about soy.

Dotsie Bausch

People are like, uh-oh, they flipped or something. No, we're still in love with the soybeans. Oh, that's so cool of you to be excited about it. Hopefully, our listeners will be. I feel like they've definitely heard us talk about the journey, at least, of getting soy milk as an option into the public schools for the 51 million children that go to school every day. And 30 or so million of them are made sick by cow's milk via lactose intolerance or an allergy or just a general disdain for how it tastes. And there is no other choice. We literally have a cow's milk mandate in our school system. And really, it's a multifaceted problem. One of the problems is the enormous amount of waste that goes along with this program. This is a USDA program. They subsidize the dairy industry. That's really why the dairy industry is still in business because of these subsidies. The USDA themself did a study in 2019 to look at the waste of the cartons of cow's milk. And what their own study found was that 29.8%, so almost 30% of the cartons of cow's milk are thrown away into the garbage by the kids completely untouched. So unopened.

Alexandra Paul

Tell me a little bit for folks who don't know about the school program.

Dotsie Bausch

Well, the school lunch program was actually created by Truman right after World War II. And the reason for it was because the United States was feeding a lot of the Allied forces during the war. So when the war ended, we no longer needed to or were asked to feed the Allied forces. So the school lunch program was created really to dump commodities, dump food commodities that we had extra of. And I'm talking, thousands and thousands of gallons of cow's milk that they had made into cheese and other products. But there was still there was still a lot of raw milk. And so they decided to give to the children. in the public school system, which I'm sure at the time sounded like a good idea. I believe that back then they thought that was healthy. Schools were segregated at that time, so they weren't thinking about, sadly, all of the children of color who are mostly entirely lactose intolerant and can't even properly digest or even digest the lactose in cow's milk. That's how it got created.

Alexandra Paul

So what does it do? Does it mandate, does it mandate that kids in grade school up to what, age 6th grade or something, have a carton of milk with their lunch?

Dotsie Bausch

No, it doesn't mandate that they have to take it. In order for the school to get reimbursed, they have to take it. So I've talked to literally hundreds of teachers and they stand there at the end of the lunch line or at the beginning of the lunch line, depending on where the cow's milk is, and place them on the tray of the children, whether they really wondered or not. Secondly, the children do not have another choice besides cow's milk. That is the only offering. You can get water, but as far as a choice that has nutrients in it, it is their only choice, which is why we call it a milk mandate. So these children are not saying really yes or no. I mean, some probably are, but it's getting placed on their tray and then 30% of it is going directly in the trash. And given that our school lunch program costs taxpayers about a billion dollars a year, that's 300 million of years in my tax dollars that are just being tossed in the waste basket in 2019 alone. So massive waste problem, massive amount of a major equity and justice problem, right? That these kids only have this one choice. And it is something that makes so many of them sick. And in 2020, as we've discussed on this show, we spearheaded a massive public awareness and activism campaign, pressuring the USDA and the new version of the dietary guidelines to add soy milk in as nutritionally equivalent to cow's milk because it is the exact replica of cow's milk from a macronutrient perspective, right? So just carbohydrate, proteins, and fats. And so that got accepted, right? That got put into the new version of the 2020 dietary guidelines. So that is why we are calling on soy milk to be the option. There's lots of wonderful plant-based milks and options, but there's a variety of different reasons that many of them won't work as an option. The nut milks, as you can imagine, why? The allergies, they don't even let a peanut butter sandwich in school, so they're not going to be letting the tree nuts in. Then you have wonderful milks that we all enjoy from time to time, like a coconut milk maybe, which is almost 40% fat. With the dietary guidelines, claiming that they are aware of and not as saying that saturated fat is not healthy for us. Coconut milk would be a problem. Oat milk is delicious and wonderful and it foams great in our lattes, but it has almost no protein. So as you go down the nut milks and all the milks, all the alternative milks, you realize that if you are going to offer some of these kids that are part of the National School Lunch Program, the school lunch and breakfast program who may not get dinner when they go home at night, we really need to be careful that we are offering them something that does have a rich macronutrient profile. It can't just have, you know, no protein or no carbohydrate. So which is not the case for the milks, but definitely no protein. Some of them are very low protein like rice milk, you know, the list is endless. So anyway, we, in collaboration with Animal Wellness Action and the Center for Humane Economy have a bill, HR 1619, that we introduced via Representative Troy Carter and Representative Nancy Mace, so a bipartisan bill. in Congress about a little over a month ago. And so we are, the journey of this, because you got a bill passed last year in December, but it is all hands on deck and full court press to get this bill passed. And what does that mean? It means that all of the representatives and then the senators, because it'll obviously have to pass in the Senate as well, are educated on this bill, understand what it does, understand the equity that it provides, the fairness that it would provide, that the waste would go way down, right? Because now the kids have a choice and they would get reimbursed for both milks. So then kids would choose what they want to drink. They would still have a choice for cow's milk. This isn't getting rid of dairy, but it's offering them a choice. And the bills would also support many Midwest farmers, right? Because soybeans are one of the biggest and most important ag crops in the US with more than 500,000 producers, way more. So if passed, we call it the Add Soy Act. It's addressing digestion-- I'm not going to say this very well-- addressing digestive distress in the stomachs of our youth. It would end the federal milk mandate that's been in order since World War II. So what we are really needing to do now is put education and pressure on our representatives and our senators so that they understand this bill, they realize exactly what it's asking for, and they then hopefully want to support it. So in the show notes of this show and many of the shows that will follow this, we will have a link that you can click and I've done it. It's less than a minute. It's about 35 seconds of your time. So going to the show notes, though, will take you a few moments. So let's say less than a minute. And you click on the link, and all you're going to do, the letter is going to pop up. Read it if you'd like to. Please do. You're welcome to add anything of your own choosing at the end if you have a comment. And then you will just Press a button, send, right? 'Cause you're gonna fill in your name and your address because this is gonna go, you're one representative and you're two senators from your state and your jurisdiction. So that is what we desperately need people to do. We need to flood these, the House of Representatives and the senators with these letters saying that you support it. The people in their jurisdiction, the people in their state support this and they want to see this happen.

Alexandra Paul

Go to the link in the show notes and add your name to help give kids a choice so that they don't get sick during school for having to drink milk and only milk, cow's milk that is. So we want to add something else that is a healthful plant-based option. So Dotsie, thanks for all your work on this. I really appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to our guests today because they'd be a huge proponent of your work here, Dotsie.

Dotsie Bausch

Yes, yes. Onto the guests. I hope y'all enjoy. And thank you so much as always for the support.

Alexandra Paul

If you're a vegan or a vegetarian, at some point, someone somewhere has probably asked you how you get enough protein. It's a common misconception that a plant-based diet is deficient in protein. However, in their new book, Plant-Powered Protein: Nutrition Essentials and Dietary Guidelines for All Ages, our guests today, dietitians Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina, debunk the myth that you can't get quality protein without eating animals. The book provides tons of evidence for why plant protein is in fact the superior choice. This is their 7th book together and their 20th in total, many of them bestsellers. So we're really excited to have them both here today. Brenda Davis is widely regarded as the godmother of vegan dietitians. And you might also remember Brenda from her amazing appearance on episode 92 of the Switch for Good podcast. Vesanto Melina is a consultant for the government of British Columbia and a recipient of the prestigious Award for Leadership in Dietetics. We are excited to have these plant-based pioneers with us today to set the record straight about the incredible power of plant protein. Thank you so much for being here, Vesanto and Brenda.

Brenda Davis

Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited to be here.

Alexandra Paul

I tasted a little bit in the introduction, but can you explain what you see as the main advantages to choosing plant-based protein sources over animal protein sources? Because we hear a lot about quality, that word quality protein. So tell us the pros and cons of each.

Brenda Davis

Well, maybe I'll start and then Vesanto, you can chime in. I really believe the evidence is so crystal clear on this. Plant-rich, protein-rich plant foods, I should say, provide a more healthful, a more ecologically sustainable, and a kinder way of providing protein to a very rapidly growing human population. To me, it just makes no sense to source protein from animals when it's not only unnecessary, but it hurts humans. It's one of the biggest contributors to climate change and environmental degradation, and it causes unthinkable suffering for billions of animals who are raised and slaughtered for food each and every year. You know, I just can't help but thinking choosing plant protein sources is the very least we can do as thinking human beings. So that, you know, that'll start us out in Vesanto, you can chime in from there.

Vesanto Melina

Well, we find there are so many components in animal products that are problematic. Brenda, which ones do you come to your mind at first?

Brenda Davis

Well, certainly everybody thinks of saturated fat, trans fatty acids, and then there are things like Neu5GC and TMAO precursors. And there's, you know, environmental contaminants that move up the food chain. And then there are all the things like heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and all of these products of oxidation from cooking these foods at high temperatures to get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria. And then, all of the things that are lacking, there's no fiber, there's no phytochemicals, very few antioxidants in the list, you know, pre and probiotics and those kinds of things that are absent from animal source protein. And of course, You know, what we know is that the research is really quite clear that people that tend to get their calories from animal protein have higher rates of mortality and morbidity or death and disease than people who get their protein from plants. And so when we think about the whole quality issue for so many years, Vesanto knows a lot about this, but, you know, we really define quality based on, you know, the sort of digestion stability of protein, the amino acid profile and so forth. And I think we need to redefine protein quality based on other things like how it affects our risk of dying. Those are important issues. We.

Dotsie Bausch

Don't want an early death. I don't think there's too many people that would argue that it's a kinder choice to choose and source your protein from plants. But the question that I get all the time, and the naysayers go to the word quality, which you just mentioned, oh yeah, but the quality of the protein, and they go right to the amino acids and the 11 amino acids that your body makes and the other ones you have to get from sources other than your body, right? You have to eat it. And that's where people go, oh, but that's where you need it from animals because plants don't have essentials and you have to make all these food combinations and it's really complicated. What do you say to those people?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, that is from quite a long time ago. And I'm an old. I started teaching university in 1965. And in that the decades before that, we had been doing studies to figure out how good protein was. And they were done on weanling rats, four weeks old. And these little rats could double their weight in four weeks if they were fed cheese or meat. And those studies have still been a foundation for some of the protein quality assessments. For example, in Canada, we're still using protein efficiency ratio as a standard. And not that many people I know. In fact, I can't think of one that I've met who wants to double their weight in four weeks like these. And they don't want to grow fur all over their body. They don't. So they like to have long hair, but they don't want to grow fur all over. And the type of protein that had high sulfur amino acids was very good for growing fur, but it wasn't exactly what we need. Now, it's tricky to figure out what humans need because you have different limitations on doing human studies and we're just inching our way up. protein quality assessed by PDC AAS now in the US. They've inched their way along and there's some more newer studies that are done with putting a tube at one place in the intestine to see how much was absorbed in the intestine, but not that many people want to have that done. So the studies are quite limited, you know. But we find in those newer studies, the more accurate studies, that plant protein is proving equal quality to animal protein. It's just as good in doing the jobs that protein needs to do.

Brenda Davis

And just to add one other thing to that, Dotsie, is that every single essential amino acid or indispensable amino acid is actually made by plants. So it makes no sense to think we can't get them from plants. That's where they come from. They come from plants either directly through eating plants or indirectly through eating animals that ate plants or very indirectly biting animals that ate animals that ate plants. So if you know all of those essential amino acids, every single plant food contains every single essential amino acids, every single essential amino acid, and maybe not in the absolute, you know, each individual food in the absolute perfect profile. But when we eat a variety of these foods, we certainly get the amino acids we need, if we get enough calories.

Vesanto Melina

And actually every plant food has every one of the essential amino acids. The one protein food that doesn't have them all is gelatin, which is made of animal bones. That one's lacking. So the plant foods all have them.

Alexandra Paul

But my understanding is, and this is from the '80s, by the way, when food combining- Oh yeah. Was that the amino acids were limited by the lowest one? So if you had very little of the 15th amino acid, I've forgotten how many there are, that means everything else was brought down to that level. Is that true? And can we have a discussion about maybe where plants might not be as, if there is a reason, so that we can at least have some, be, you know, not sound wholly biased? There must be some disadvantages to plant protein too, are there?

Vesanto Melina

Well, these little rats from the rat study, you know how many foods they were fed? One. One food. And humans are not supposed to eat just one food. So these studies were also peculiar and not really related to reality. But it turns out that every one of the plant foods has every one of the amino acids and they're in reasonable amounts. Now, if you just had one plant foods, they were only allowed to feed potatoes. You would be limited in the protein, but that's not how people eat. If you ate enough potatoes, you'd actually get all the amino acids, even protein.

Dotsie Bausch

I do that. I think that's where I get the most source of my protein because I eat so many. It's like a joke on this show. So don't worry, just eat lots.

Brenda Davis

That's okay. Yeah, and just to add a little bit to that, you know, it used to be we thought We needed to combine, you see, legumes tend to be just slightly low per gram of protein, slightly low in methionine and cysteine. And grains tend to be slightly low in lysine. Relative, like let's say, you need 50 grams of protein and all you get is 50 grams of protein. Each gram of protein for a preschool child, they would need to get 58 milligrams of lysine and adults would need 38 milligrams of lysine. But if you were just, you know, just eating one food and getting those 50 grams of protein, and that food was low in lysine, like let's say it was, you know, rice or some sort of grain, you would have to eat a lot more of that food, then 50 grams of protein to meet your requirements for that amino acid. So people used to think, well, hey, if we eat the grains and the beans at the same time, we're all good because they fill one and you know, the short claws, they combine to make a complete protein. But what we didn't realize at that time was that humans actually have protein pools. So if you eat a lot of legumes and you get extra lysine, they're just stored in pools. Let's say the next meal, all you eat is some wheat toast. You'll just draw on the pools for the lysine. And so what we know now is that if you eat a mix of food, you get enough calories, and you're eating sort of a variety of plant foods, generally, you'll meet your needs for total protein and for all of the essential amino acids. There's no need to do this careful complementing we used to think we needed to do.

Dotsie Bausch

Yeah.

Brenda Davis

And we've known that for what, 25 years, Vesanto?

Vesanto Melina

No, it was 19.

Brenda Davis

20 years.

Vesanto Melina

Francis Mar Lepe first of all came out with that food combining, grains, beans. And then after 10 years, this is 1970s, after 10 years, she said, oops, that doesn't need to happen. Don't worry about it. Yeah.

Dotsie Bausch

I haven't, when you guys started talking about, or mentioning, you know, one food, we don't just eat one food, something that popped in my mind was kiddos on the spectrum, like my nephew, not all, but some will eat seven foods, six, right? So if you had to say to parents now, okay, now not that they have a choice, right? Because his six foods are very specific in particular, and I don't think my sister's going to be able to change him to six other foods. But in a perfect world, if there was some change that could be made, what would be those six foods?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, they could easily do that. And people in Nepal, like I've trekked in Nepal, and the sherpas who were carrying our bags, you know, we walked with our little pack sack. They had all the severe stuff. They were eating dal bat and saag. They were eating rice, lentils, spinach. And they were fine. They were carrying everything, you know? And so people can eat very well that way. And it did because we had a vegetable. I actually had a senior in a nursing home who was, he had kind of paranoia about what the kitchen, and I had to figure out four foods for him that he was willing to eat too. And I know that with autistic kids, I think our grandson, he's not autistic, but he only likes his limited thing and I often have to figure not often but have to figure out that out for individuals and I've figured it out for the senior with his four foods that was okay it worked out fine what were they were um canned tomatoes he didn't he did and canned bean beans and bread and peanut butter and I worked it out. He had the vegetables, canned tomatoes. He'd have a banana once in a while, but I had to work it out very carefully. He was afraid that, you know, of what was being served to him other than that. And so it's interesting. Yeah.

Dotsie Bausch

It's in fear. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's tough because a lot of times when your kiddo will only eat, you know, five or six foods, that's when the dairy comes in for parents because they're like, I just need to get them nutrients. I know there's other things in it that are not great, but I just need to deliver the nutrients and it's easy and it's quick and he'll eat it or drink it. What do you say to that? What can the parent maybe try?

Vesanto Melina

Sometimes with a toddler that is very limited, I've suggested they continue with soy formula for a while, like longer than you'd normally do it. Because that is, you know, covering all the bases. Or we just work out what those foods are. One little autistic child near me will eat fruit, a lot of fruit, and we have to figure out things that he can eat. But he'll like grains and peanut butter and things like that. And so it can all work out. It really can.

Dotsie Bausch

Peanut butter is a godsend. It is a godsend.

Alexandra Paul

Let's, we were, you mentioned seniors and Dotsie mentioned kids. Let's start with kids. Let's start with the beginning of life and then go through to the end of life about protein and what humans need. Can you, Dotsie's right, a lot of parents who might be vegan themselves, partly maybe because of peer pressure and the concern that they might, people might be judgmental about what they're doing with their kids. But can you talk to parents who are going to have kids or have young kids and reassure them why, give them some, well, specific information on what they can tell people in terms of why a kid can grow up just fine on a vegan diet and give them some options of what they could feed their kid.

Brenda Davis

So I'll talk about that a little bit. I think the first thing to recognize is that there are many advantages and to let them know that the children who grow up eating a plant-based diet tend to be leaner, tend to have a greater consumption of fruits and vegetables and whole grains and all of these healthy foods, they tend to do, as well, at least in terms of development and, productivity, I guess, if you will. And so we actually have a couple of fairly recent, wonderful studies from Germany called the Vecchi studies. And Vecchi actually compared the intakes of vegan children, lacto-ovo vegetarian children, and omnivorous children in terms of calories, nutrient intake. Then they looked at their blood work, their growth. And what was interesting is all three categories actually did very well. They were meeting needs. The vegan children tended to consume less saturated fat, more fiber, you know, and these are all good things. They tended, again, to be a little bit leaner at lower cholesterol levels. The differences in sort of lab work weren’t anything that would concern a parent at all. And in fact, since we're talking about protein, it was really interesting to look at the protein intake. So one of the studies was on 430 toddlers from one to three years of age, and they averaged. So just so you know, the RDA for toddlers for protein is 1.05 grams per kilogram body weight. Well, these kids were averaging the omnivores, 2.7 grams per kilogram, the lacto-ovo vegetarians, 2.3 and the vegans 2.4 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. So all of them were consuming over double the RDA. The only nutrients that the kids tended to fall short on were calcium and vitamin D and all the categories of, you know, all the kids fell short. The vegans probably had the lowest intakes of those two nutrients. But they had the highest intakes for a number of nutrients. And so, those are nutrients that parents, it just makes sense to grow. provide some sort of a fortified non-dairy milk rather than the unfortified options, for example. And that takes care of that pretty easily. They provide about the same amount of calcium and B12 and vitamin D as dairy milk does, but with the advantage for toddlers of having more iron. And so what we see with high intakes of cow's milk is iron deficiency anemia. And with providing soy milk, which is by far the most nutritious plant-based option in terms of protein and micronutrient content, it's a pretty good swap because the protein, calcium, vitamin D, B12 are all very similar to cow's milk, but the iron's higher, which is a huge concern for toddlers, is meeting iron needs. And then it wasn't much different for the older children. They had another study of that she looking at 6 to 18 year old children. And again, the intakes of protein were pretty impressive. They weren't as high as they were for the toddlers. But nonetheless, they were, they were, I think it was 1.36 or something for omnivores, 1.14 for lacto-ovo, 1.16 for vegans. And the RDA for that age, well, it's.85 for teenagers and.95 for the, for children from. 4 to 13 years of age. So they were all well above the recommended intake. So certainly parents, I think, can feel pretty confident. And, the studies just keep coming. So it's definitely a choice that will reduce, and habits really start in childhood. We learn a lot about, and develop taste for eating certain foods. And so you start out with healthy foods and you're really paving the way for a lifetime of healthy eating. And I think that's hugely important. And so vegetarian children are, or vegan children are at an advantage in that group.

Vesanto Melina

One thing about starting out, there's just been some new study that when mothers breastfeed and they're vegans and they're eating lots of vegetables, the child has more taste for that.

Dotsie Bausch

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And that's really interesting. I find some of these kids that won't expand their eating horizons were fed something like a formula right from birth. The other thing that can happen for children is when they're fed soy foods, the little girls have a less risk of breast cancer in later life. and the boys less prostate cancer.

Dotsie Bausch

That's great. You brought that up. That that's a powerful look and a study.

Alexandra Paul

Hey, friends and listeners of the Switch for Good podcast. Yep, that's you. I have some really exciting news. Satzi and I have started a Switch for Good podcast Facebook group. We created it so we can build a community of fans that will help us improve the show and deliver on the topics that you want to learn more about. So we want to hear what your favorite content is, what you want more of, and what you want less of. And if you like the length of the show, Dotsie and I are always talking about the length of the show, right, Dotsie? Yes. We want to tailor our show around the needs and desires of our incredible listeners, almost half a million of you. And it's really simple to join. Just go to our Switch for Good Facebook page, that's Switch, the number four, and then good, and then click on groups. And there we are, the Switch for Good podcast chat. You can post directly in the group, share ideas, talk to other listeners, and connect with like-minded folks. So go, run, join our Facebook group and tell us what you want.

Dotsie Bausch

Just as important, I think, for parents, because partly because the dairy industry has done this to us, but it is an important nutrient, calcium. And you mentioned in the omnivores and in the plant-based kids, it was the vitamin D and the calcium was low. So we know that cow's milk and plant-based milks are fortified with D. So, you know, that it's not naturally occurring. But calcium, I feel like I get asked that question almost once a day, whether it's an e-mail or something from the website or, you know, that people are very concerned about calcium, especially for their children. And the dairy and just having, would like to have us believe that, you know, Cow's milk from that very specific bovine mammal is the only way that you can get calcium and they think that's, but we're seeing that the kids that even drank plenty of milk, or maybe they didn't because they didn't like it, because they didn't choose it because they didn't like it, which we talked about at the beginning of the show with the Add Soy Act. A lot of kids are just throwing away the milk cartons untouched in schools. So maybe they don't like it. And then the plant-based kids, okay, they're not drinking cow's milk. And I... I eat a ton of tahini. I think it's delicious and I love it. And I know that it's really high calcium, right? Which is just made from sesame seeds. But when, and I'll tell adults that, right? Like, oh, tahini, have you discovered it yet? Drizzle it on everything. You've got all the calcium you need. But for kiddos, parents are like, where am I really going to actually get the calcium that the kids will eat? That they'll, because, and don't tell me kale, because my four-year-old is not going to start munching on kale. Like, you know? And so I kind of go, you know, maybe dipping the carrots or their little chips in tahini is a good idea, but it's tahini is also kind of expensive. It's not necessarily the easiest to find. So what would you guys say to those parents? Calcium, right? Which is just made from sesame seeds. But when, and I'll tell adults that, right? Like, oh, tahini, have you discovered it yet? Drizzle it on everything. You've got all the calcium you need. But for kiddos, parents are like, where am I really going to actually get the calcium that the kids will eat? That they'll, because, and don't tell me kale, because my four-year-old is not going to start munching on kale, you know? And so I kind of go, you know, maybe dipping the carrots or their little chips in tahini is a good idea, but it's tahini is also kind of expensive. It's not necessarily the easiest to find. So what would you guys say to those parents? What would you guys say to those parents?

Vesanto Melina

Tofu is a really good one. Tofu is set with calcium, so it's good to look on the label and make sure that there is some calcium in the brand that you're buying, and it can be significant amounts. You'll get more than from dairy in that.

Dotsie Bausch

Wow.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, in other food groups. as well.

Dotsie Bausch

So then is it in soy milk? Is there a lot of calcium in soy milk?

Vesanto Melina

Well, the same amount as you'd get from cow's milk. But I don't meet people or do when I have clients, I don't see people that are drinking four glasses of milk a day, even when they drink milk. Like we need it from all kinds of other foods and our ancestors got it from all kinds of different foods. And I found it odd when food guides have milk as an essential food group. That seems quite a racist thing to have on a food guide, because 70% of the world's population has some degree of lactase insufficiency, and it's just unsuitable to do that. So some food guides, for example, the Canadian one, have stopped having that as a separate food group. And I think it's moving that way worldwide.

Dotsie Bausch

Why did they, I mean, it was all very exciting when they took dairy off of the Canadian Dietary Guidelines. Do you know, do you have the inner story of why they did it?

Vesanto Melina

Well, one funny thing was that I was doing a keynote address for Dietitians of Canada. And I got a standing ovation. I'd worked hard on this to do it because it was at a national convention in a very meat producing area. And I came off the off the stage, and we had just published our Becoming Vegan Comprehensive, and I handed it to the director of Nutrition for Health Canada when it came off. And he said, oh, this is interesting. My family's not quite vegan, but we're close. And they used that book while they were developing the food guide. And their food guide has ended up very similar to ours. I mean, they weren't following exactly. I know it was because we had it so well referenced. This was the Becoming Vegan comprehensive edition that Brenda and I did. And so that was an influence. And when the scientists start reading the research, because we had all kinds of calcium foods, listed. Okay, here's where you can get it from this source, this source, this source, all the food groups. You could get it from calcium's fortified tortillas. That's where a lot of people got theirs. You could get it from white and black beans. You could get it from different grains. And I have seen the son of Brenda Davis at a toddler age, munching broccoli voluntarily. You'd like to have a piece of it?

Alexandra Paul

That's right.

Vesanto Melina

And there's more than that, right, Fred? Yeah.

Brenda Davis

Yeah. Well, and you know, the other thing about Canada's Food Guide in the development is that Health Canada made a commitment to Canadians that they would not accept influence from industry and the development of the guide, that it would be completely evidence-based. And so, and it's not quite fair to say that dairy was completely ousted, but there's no longer a distinct. dairy food group. Dairy is now part of the protein-rich foods. And so it's not that you can't have it as part of a healthy diet, but that it's not, the focus isn't there anymore. And I think part of it was the recognition. that they wanted the guide to be suitable for all Canadians, including people who come from different cultures that don't traditionally use dairy or who may be sensitive to dairy. But it was quite a process. It was a long process. And obviously, we were doing cartwheels when we saw the final rendition of the guide. But getting back to calcium, I think what's important to recognize, and Vesanto mentioned in paleo times, people were consuming a thousand plus milligrams of calcium a day without a single drop of cow's milk. Calcium is in the soil and there are many foods that are decent sources. And certainly tofu that's made with calcium and these four to five dairy products can help us to get to the, you know, a four to eight-year old requires a thousand or the RDA is a thousand milligrams a day. That's a lot for a small child. For a senior who might need 1200, a 50 year old, plus woman or 70 plus men who might, try to meet the RDA of 1200 milligrams. It's not that easy to do without using a little bit of, you know, the fortified tofu, the dairy milks that sort of gets us from the 700 or so or 800 we might get by eating a healthy whole food plant based diet. And then you get 300 milligrams from, you know, a serving of fortified soy milk or if you have one and a half servings or a couple 100 from 1/4 pack of tofu if you pick the right tofu. But the other foods that are really providing a lot are, there are a number of legumes that are decent sources. There are a number of low oxalate leafy greens that are good sources. If you look at a list, you'll see spinach near the top in terms of calcium content, but unfortunately it contains a lot of oxalates. And that doesn't make the calcium a bit. It really hinders the absorption of the calcium. So we might only get 5% of the calcium from spinach, whereas we might get 40 or 50 or 60% from kale and bok choy and the lower oxalate greens, broccoli and so on. And so those are sources. And then if we look at nuts and seeds, like you mentioned, tahini and almonds and chia seeds are actually quite high in calcium. So if you're eating a really healthy diet with a mix of all of those foods, you're going to be getting a fair bit of calcium. Where you fall short is when you're eating a whole lot of processed foods and added sugars and oils and so forth, where there is no, you know, or very little calcium in many of those foods.

Alexandra Paul

RDA came up and I'm. I'm reading a book by Dr. Peter Atia at the moment, who scoffed at the RDA recommendations for protein. And I hear a lot of people do, they feel like it's the minimum. Can you give us an idea of what is the, how does the RDA figure in how we should look at our own needs, especially when it comes to protein?

Vesanto Melina

You want to say that one, Brenda?

Brenda Davis

I can, sure. So the RDA for protein was really, you know, when RDAs are made, you've got these, you know, these panels of scientific experts from Canada and the United States who go through all of the literature, the best recommendation they can based on the current evidence. And for protein, of course, you're looking at nitrogen balance and all of those things. And essentially, what the government, the governments, our combined governments have done is to come up with recommendations that are actually 25% higher than biological requirements. Biological requirements for an adult are thought to be about 0.66 grams per kilogram body weight. Now, so they're 0.8, the RDA for adults is 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. It's a little tiny bit higher in Europe. I think it's 0.83 or something like that. But in North America, it's 0.80. And then that also, that is meant to cover 97 to 98%. of the population. But there are several groups for which the recommendations are higher. So infants and children, of course, and pregnant and lactating women, it's significantly higher. It's 1.1 grams during pregnancy, 1.3 grams during lactation. So it's significantly higher. But there are others who we don't have a separate RDA for, but have higher requirements, and that includes athletes. And if you look at expert bodies, you'd be very familiar with this, they're recommending 1.2 to 2.0 grams per kilogram body weight. And then the other group of individuals for whom there are higher requirements probably are seniors, which, you know, most experts now are suggesting 1 to 1.2 or 3 grams of protein per kilogram body weight because of the reduce that we just as we get older, we have less capacity to break apart protein and absorb those amino acids. And so in some countries like Australia and Europe, they actually have a separate RDA for seniors. But I think to say that the RDA is grossly under what we require is a bit of a stretch when you consider all of those things. Yes, it may be higher for certain, for athletes and seniors, but I think for adults, we're pretty bang on. Now, for people eating truly whole food, plant-based diets, very high in fiber, they're not eating lower fiber foods like tofu and peanut butter and veggie meats and those kinds of things. They may want to add 10% to their intake. If they eat whole grains and beans and are living on nuts and seeds and fruits and vegetables, the digestibility of protein from high fiber foods is a little lower than it is from foods that don't have so much fiber. Of course, animal products have no fiber, so the digestibility is quite high. But it's very similar. The digestibility is very similar to animal products in things like tofu and peanut butter. and refined grains and those kinds of things, the protein digestibility is quite high. And now some of the newer quality scores, like the true ileal digestibility, suggests a lot less difference in digestibility in cooked plant foods, kind of foods people eat, versus animal products than what we used to think when our indicators were based on, feeding raw beans and raw grains to pigs, for example. So we're learning that the difference isn't probably as big as what we had thought previously.

Dotsie Bausch

Speaking.

Brenda Davis

Sorry.

Dotsie Bausch

Yeah, no, that was fantastic and really helpful. And I'm glad to know it's a little bit more arm par than, you know, extremely low. What for seniors, why do some seniors, a lot of seniors, lose muscle or what it appears to mean to lose a fair amount of muscle? And how might we prevent that as we age?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, there are a number of factors that come into this. One is, you need to move your body, move your muscles to keep them active. You can't just pile up with tofu or beans or meat or protein powders and expect you're going to gain muscle mass. You have to use those muscles. So it's got to be a combination of eating the foods that have protein and using your muscles, which some seniors actually don't do. Now, there are also challenges that come up that are part of lifestyle, like dental problems. And I found, for example, some people who have trouble chewing meat are thrilled to get some tofu when it tastes good. They've got to taste good, you know, but they can bite that well, and it's easy when your dentures are not that comfortable, or your teeth are not doing too well. And so those are some of the difficulties. Of course, people I've had seniors have trouble at a nursing home. that people that were plant-based had trouble getting the protein foods they needed. And even I've talked to the managers or the cooks, you know, to help them get something on the menu. Some nursing homes do quite well at that, and others haven't discovered how to do it yet. There are other situations like people have trouble going shopping. or knowing what to prepare, or they get kind of discouraged because they've lost a partner. So they're just preparing food for one. So these are some of the challenges that lead to the muscle wasting.

Dotsie Bausch

Impact is important for to grow our bones, especially of course, of our muscle, but like, it's like cycling, swimming, wonderful for you, wonderful for your heart, your cardiovascular system, but you need to be pounding for your bones to really stay strong as you get older, right? So power walking or running, like literally, I just always describe it to people as think of pounding, right? So jumping rope, jumping, right? You really have to, think of that high impact, which I have found, you know, seniors kind of a lot of them stop doing it. They're afraid of falling. They're afraid of hurting themselves. They're afraid of, you know, breaking an ankle. And so, you know, it's good to figure out a good surface, a safe surface, you know, 'cause you can still do it, right? You don't have to be outside on the concrete. You can be on carpet, you know, so if anyway, if something were to happen, you'd be safe, but it's another element that happens as we age, right? Muscle and bone loss.

Brenda Davis

Yeah. And then the other thing that I think is worth mentioning is, if you think of a senior requiring, 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram body weight versus an athlete needing 1.2 kilograms of protein per pound of body weight, let's say they both weigh the exact same amount. The big difference is in the calories they're consuming. So the athlete might be eating 3 or 4,000 calories, and they may only need 14% of calories from protein, even though they need 100 grams of protein a day. It's just they're eating so many calories, whereas a senior tends to eat a lot less. They don't need as many calories. And so the amount of calories from protein could easily be 20%. And that's a lot more challenging on a plant-based diet. And to prevent sarcopenia or muscle wasting, they may need 7 or 800 or 1000 milligrams of leucine per meal. That's not that easy to achieve. So it's definitely a bigger challenge for seniors. And in my view, and I think this is what Vesanto and I are both doing in our own diets, is that we're tending to eat fewer of the potatoes and more of the beans to shift our diet a little bit more in the direction of a little extra protein as we age. So that can be helpful to, and a lot of seniors, they don't want to eat a lot of beans because they cause gas. And so learning how to prepare them, adding, adding more tofu and even sometimes, and people might be surprised to hear me say this, but even adding some veggie meats can be really helpful for a senior who doesn't want to cook too much. It's just simple to get it out and it tastes familiar and it's easy. And it's a very highly available protein. It's a high quality, whatever you want to call it. There's very little fiber there. So the digestibility is high and that can really help to boost protein quickly. So there are lots. And of course, if someone wants to use a protein powder, make a smoothie, add, you know, I always add things like hemp seeds and peas and, you know, things like that, whole foods to the smoothies to boost protein. But there are lots of things that seniors that that might be feel easier for seniors, making pea soups that are familiar foods or lentil soups might be something that they would be quite willing to do, or even if it was buying something pre-made. So yeah, it definitely a bigger challenge for seniors though.

Alexandra Paul

Also, I've been reading that it's important that people lift weights if they want to maintain their muscle mass. Can you share about that? Because I'm turning 60 in a month and I am really trying to lift heavier weights because, and I never used to, I used to just be really like really light and say, okay, I've done it, done what I should. But I've been reading now that the studies show that it's better to lift heavier to maintain muscle mass.

Vesanto Melina

It is. And it's important to have some help in how to do it properly so that your body position is right. Yeah. But I know it's, I personally, I'm 81 by the way, and Brenda will be 65 in January. So we're really interested in these seniors issues along with all the rest because we've got grandchildren and, you know, watch the whole thing. But it's important to do a mix of fitness. So we've talked before about some weight-bearing exercise where there's a little bit of impact. But we also want weights, we want stretching. And I think it's important to somehow do about an hour of fitness a day. And for some people, this is going to be inching it up, you know, to that, not starting off at that, but, you know, just gradually increasing and increasing the weight bearing, the weights. the stretching, a bit of endurance, like trying to walk as fast as you can, having your meetings based on walking around the lake or walking in a nearby park, not sitting at a coffee shop. So the whole mix of fitness is really important as we get older. And being outdoors, you know, the Japanese forest bathing, I think we're finding more and more than that does a lot for our body and soul.

Alexandra Paul

What should we be looking for in terms of, I use protein powder just because I like it. But what should we be looking for in a protein powder and make sure we avoid in a protein powder?

Vesanto Melina

A lot of the protein powders are whey. And that was a byproduct of dairy. But you'll see the shelves just packed with that. But we're finding from the research, of endurance athletes, different athletes that are bodybuilding, that soy protein does just as well. And there are good protein powders with pea protein. So you can get a good vegan protein powder. And that can be useful for athletes, it can be useful for seniors, you know, the ones that really are not eating that much right now, and we want to get their muscle mass back.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, and so just to add to that, I would suggest some of the protein powders, there are a couple of very good quality vegan protein powders that have a mix of different plant proteins. And you know, while soy and pumpkin and hemp and pea are all really good options, you'll be shocked to see this. Or tops the list for leucine. And potato protein comes in #2 for leucine, which is shocking. I mean, they're not super concentrated sources of protein, but if you extract the protein from them, that protein is actually pretty high in leucine. So, you know, having a mix of different plant proteins is a good idea. And the other thing to be just aware of is the ingredient list. So some protein powders have a lot of, you know, additives and sugar and fats and thickeners and artificial colors. And so you want to really look at the list of ingredients. And then, you know, there are also some concerns that I'm sure you are very familiar with of environmental contaminants like lead and cadmium and arsenic and mercury and BPA and pesticides and, you know, all of these different environmental contaminants being present in some.

Dotsie Bausch

But they don't have to list those.

Brenda Davis

No, they don't. They don't have to know.

Dotsie Bausch

So how do we know?

Brenda Davis

Well, and that's tough because in fact, there have been some tests and the plant protein powders actually seem to fare worse than the whey protein powders for those particular contaminants. And so there are a few, I don't know how accurate the Clean Label project is, but they've got a list of what they found in various protein powders. You can, some of them have a third party certification stamp where they've actually been, you know, evaluated or screened for safety and for those kind of compounds. So you can look for that. There are a few companies that I think are doing everything they can, like complementing, putting together a mix of proteins and really going the distance to make sure that their protein powder is very, is clean, if you will.

Alexandra Paul

So I went to the Clean Label Project website just a couple of days ago because somebody sent me something about the fact that protein powders do have a lot of arsenic and cadmium and things like that. And just like you said, the plant protein student fare as well. I couldn't find the list of, and I was worried that they were just trying to get sort of, then they were looking for certification. Like they have their own certification. So I was worried that they were just.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, and no, well, what I'm saying is I'm actually not sure how reliable they are. It's just one place that I've heard provides a list. So I haven't looked at it extensively and I haven't really done searches to see how reliable it is. I don't know of much else. I think there are probably some consumer reports that have assessed levels, but I haven't looked into that, probably as much as I should. But it's just something to be aware of. And that's one of the reasons I choose myself to add hemp seeds, frozen peas, soy milk, those kinds of things. And I can still get a smoothie, you know, Vitamix smoothie up to 40 or 50 grams of protein just by doing that.

Alexandra Paul

Wow, great.

Vesanto Melina

One thing I do a lot is because I like to have a lot of protein. And I also get low blood sugar. So I need to have snacks that work. There's a marinated tofu recipe in our plant powered protein book that has some low sodium tamari, ginger, garlic, rice vinegar, a tiny bit of toasted sesame oil marinating. And then I have little tofu cubes that I heat in the air fryer. And I love those. I could keep a little bowl of them in the fridge and just when I'm I need a snack. I eat them, whereas somebody might eat potato chips, which I would love, but I can't keep them in the house. But I can keep the marinated tofu. It's good. And so I've always got it marinating and then I've always got it air fried for just instant. And that kind of protein really helps. So we suggest, you know, people are eating the legumes, the beans, peas, lentils, or some other really good source of protein at three meals a day. But I add in the snacks as well.

Brenda Davis

Great. And I have to add, it just made me think of this because you had mentioned kids and kale. And I can tell you the foolproof way to get kids to eat a big bowl of kale is to turn them into kale chips. Kids love kale chips. And you can make a really healthy dressing with, you know, cashews and red peppers and, you know, that kind of dressing and make it like a cheesy with nutritional yeast and make it a super healthy snack. So there are always ways that you can provide foods that just taste yummy.

Alexandra Paul

I'm sure that's in one of your many books, right? A recipe.

Brenda Davis

You know what? I don't know if we did a recipe.

Vesanto Melina

In the raw book.

Brenda Davis

Oh, in the raw book. Okay.

Alexandra Paul

How many books? I can't remember.

Vesanto Melina

I think 14 I count, and they're in 10 languages now. Oh, wonderful.

Alexandra Paul

Can you give us a couple cooking tips that someone who might just be dipping their toe into, cooking more from with plants that they might need to know, like beans or scare people and Vesanto, you shared with us how tofu could be made delicious because a lot of people have a preconceived notion that tofu is so boring. So could you help us with just a couple tips to, you know, pique the interest of our audience and then they can go get one of your books, including Plant-Powered Protein?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, I like keeping things very simple. I'll tell you differences between Brenda and I. She's more gourmet and her things always look very elegant and mine are more quick. So I rely on a few things and probably I probably only prepare food two or three times a week. So I make a great big salad and keep it in Tupperware and it's only got romaine lettuce. It could have Napa cabbage or something like that, but sometimes it's only got lettuce and maybe some kale cut really thin. So that's always in the fridge. I can walk in the door and I've got a lemon tahini dressing, which is really good. It could optionally have nutritional yeast in it for more B vitamins. That's always there. And so that's more than half my plate. And then beyond that, I'll have something that's beans or legumes, lentils, tofu. And one of my quick ones is curry in a hurry. and it's just got red lentils and a curry paste that tastes good and maybe some onions. It's got like three ingredients plus water. And I like cooking things in an instant pot because I wanna go off somewhere and just forget about it, you know, like, well, I do forget about it, so, 'cause I'm busy writing or something. So then I'm careful to use the instant pot or the air fryer, which finish when they're finished and they don't just keep going. So those are kind of my go-tos. And then sometimes I'll make something like a quinoa salad for grains, but I keep it pretty simple and have some standard things in the fridge and just go to these favorites. And by the way, people usually have about 10 favorites and you just have to learn some new ones. Sometimes people already have some that are plant-based, but they can learn a couple of new ones that they love. I'll let Brenda say some of her things.

Brenda Davis

Yeah. And also just going from there, a lot of times you can take favorite omnivorous recipes and veganize or, you know, make them plant-based. And that's really super simple to do. Yeah, for me, I think I do a lot of the same things as Vasanta does, the big giant salad in the fridge, the tahini dressing, all of that. One of the things that I think makes life a lot easier is always having some sort of beans or lentils in the fridge that you've cooked. And I use an instant pot as well, and some sort of grain. And then you've got a base for, you can add those to your salad. So my husband and I, for lunch every day, we have a giant salad, but I have about four or five little bowls of avocado and tofu cubes and beans and apples and whatever that we put on top and it makes a complete meal. But I find it also serves to make a Buddha bowl or whatever for supper. You can just heat up the grains, you can steam a whole bunch of fresh veggies, and then your beans or your tofu that's in the fridge and all cooked and ready to go on top. You can put some nice dressings, a few sprouts. and it's a wonderful meal or something like a peanut, spicy peanut dressing or whatever. But always cooking in batches and having those handy. They form the base of many meals so that and that way, like the Santa said, she cooks two or three times a week. I do the same because I find that, you know, last night I made a kidney bean dish that had a white wine She.

Dotsie Bausch

It is fancy.

Brenda Davis

You're right. Yeah. So it's just fresh, with fresh herbs I got from my garden, some lots of fresh basil. And then just, it just makes it easy when you've got that, you've got your grain. Or actually last night I did a Japanese sweet potatoes to go with it. But you know, I made a big batch. So we have some Japanese sweet potatoes for a few meals now. So You know, just batch cooking just is so helpful. It just makes meals so much simpler.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, I'll say one thing here. It helps, first of all, to make sure you got the right kind of containers, like those little glass. jars that can go in the microwave if you use that, or can be put in hot water and they don't break, ones that have the little lid, and also the Tupperware for the big salad. And the big salad does not have tomatoes or red peppers in it because they don't last for four or five days, whereas the romaine and the leafy greens, they do last for four or five days.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, I do the same. I add a lot of, especially cucumbers, but you can add at the last minute. I always put the grated carrots right in. It's fine. So whatever, you know, there are several things you can put in ahead of time. And I actually have a giant glass bowl with a Tupperware lid. So you can also, you know, whatever container, it's just to make sure your container has a lid that can last in the fridge for quite a while that way.

Dotsie Bausch

Those are some very good hot tips. And Vesanto, I really like the tofu cubes because I love tofu and I'll cook it in marinated and all sorts of different, spices. And then, but for the evening and then we eat it and it's gone. So I love that tip of juice, because I would pop those in my mouth all day long. That is just, that is the tip.

Alexandra Paul

I'm loving that one.

Brenda Davis

And I do the same thing, but I don't have an air fryer, so I just do it in my convection oven. And it works very well. But last time I made my little tofu cubes, I did like 3, I do 3 packs at a time.

Dotsie Bausch

Wow.

Brenda Davis

So that, so that there's plenty to put on salads. And if I'm doing a stir fry, they can just get thrown on top. So yeah, and last time I did a BBQ and I did marinated tofu on the BBQ, I did 6 packs. So we've got lots for several days. So yeah, it's just such a good way to do it.

Dotsie Bausch

Smart ladies.

Alexandra Paul

Thank you so much. So everybody gets Plant Powered Protein, amazing recipes. It's just a wonderful, wonderful book full of information and inspiration. So I recommend them highly. Where can people find both of you if they want to learn more about what you're up to next or want to buy any of your many, many books?

Vesanto Melina

We don't have what we're up to next because we're both going 80 miles an hour, but we've got websites. So mine is nutrispeak.com and we also have the plantpoweredprotein.com that's got a dash between plant and powered. Okay. We have becomingvegan.ca as a website as well. And Brenda, you could say.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, mine's brendadavisrd.com.

Alexandra Paul

Right. And Anand, what about Instagram and things? Are you on there?

Brenda Davis

I'm a baby Instagrammer. I'm just learning.

Dotsie Bausch

Alexandra Paul and I never learned, did we?

Brenda Davis

I'm on Facebook.

Vesanto Melina

It gets, we get 50 followers within about a minute on Instagram. I'm impressed with that.

Alexandra Paul

That's awesome. I'm not surprised at all. Well, thank you. You've been delightful and we cannot wait to have you on. After you write your next book.

Brenda Davis

Oh, thank you so much for having us.

Dotsie Bausch

Hey, folks. Okay, back by very popular demand is our plant-powered plate fridge magnet, which you are going to receive for free if you leave us a rating and a review on whatever platform you're listening to this podcast on. So here are the details. Just write your quick review. Does not need to be long. Does not need to be a whole story. Just be honest and speak from the heart. Then take a quick screenshot of the review you wrote and e-mail it to us at podcast at switchforgood.org. That's podcast at switchforgood.org. And include your mailing address so we can send you a power plate. We are doing this because the more reviews we garner, the higher we go in search results, which means more folks will learn about our podcast. So the power is in your hands. Leave us a review and zoom, zoom, your power plate arrives at your doorstep.

Alexandra Paul

So thank you so much for tuning in today. If we helped you in any way, then click the subscribe button and let's keep hanging out together. We have so much more to share with you.

Dotsie Bausch

And if you need more information on actually making the Switch for Good, please visit us at switchforgood.org for loads of info, and you can subscribe to our mailing list where you will receive all sorts of super cool gifts, discount codes to our very fav dairy-free products, and a lifetime of powerful health tips.

Alexandra Paul

So join us on the journey to switch for good.

Dotsie Bausch

This is the future.

Alexandra Paul

Anyway, then click the subscribe button and let's keep hanging out together. We have so much more to share with you.