Dr. Monica Agarwal

Hi there. Welcome to another recording and podcast of Seeking Voices of Healing, Health, and Hope. I'm Dr. Monica Agarwal. I'm a preventive cardiologist. I started this podcast to really focus on hearing from people who really know the science, focus on health, nutrition, and really also about hope and understanding so much of what we don't understand about human health. I've taken a little bit of a hiatus just for my own self-preservation, but I'm back and I have a lot of new guests that I think you're going to be really excited about. Today we're going to talk to Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina. They're pretty awesome people. Brenda is a registered dietitian. She's A world-leading plant-based pioneer. She's written over 13 books and just came out with a new book called Plant-Powered Nutrition, which I'm really excited to hear about. She co-authored that with Vesanto Melina. And I'm going to tell you about Vesanto in a minute, but more on Brenda. She's co-authored articles.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

She is a speaker all over the country and really all over the world. I think that what's neat about her is that she really makes the topics of nutrition very attainable for people to understand. Vesanto Melina, she's also an internationally known nutrition consultant, speaker, academic. She's won awards for her work in Canada. She's the co-author of books with Brenda Davis and the most recent one, which is Plant-Powered Protein, which I'm really most excited about to talk to this team about. So Brenda and Vesanto are here to speak to me about nutrition, plant-powered protein, what all protein means, because I think there's a lot of confusion about this topic, and so I'm really excited to dive in. Stay tuned.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So great to see you all. Welcome to the show. I have Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina, rock stars in plant-based nutrition and really just nutrition in general. Thanks so much for being here.

Vesanto Melina

Thank you.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Thanks for having us. It's my pleasure. Well, I'm really excited to have you because you've written this new book called Plant Powered Protein. So information on it will be in the show notes, so keep an eye out. But it's a pretty fabulous book. I've had the chance to review it and I was really wowed by it. So congratulations. I really look forward to talking to you about the book and about protein in general, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about protein. So I figured let's just get into it because I have so many questions and you're going to go crazy with all the questions I have. So let's go ahead. So maybe you can tell the audience to start, what the heck is protein and why is protein important and is it really important? And what's an amino acid and what is an amino acid's relationship to a protein?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, protein is one of the three macronutrients. There's carbohydrate, fat, and protein. And like fat and carbohydrate, protein has carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, but it also has nitrogen. And so it's quite unique. Now, protein molecules are made very long, complex chains. And the shape of them is very important, and also which specific amino acids are in each protein. And they have many, many roles that are specific to the amino acids that are present and also the shape of them. They're kind of like a lock, a key and a lock. So proteins really are very important, and we use them in many, many different ways. We, of course, think of muscle. Sometimes we don't so immediately think of bone, but bone, the matrix is protein. And little kids have pretty resilient protein. You know, they don't have quite so many minerals in there and it's more bouncy. When we get older, it's much more brittle. Then there are enzymes that, like digestive enzymes. So they have that kind of role that performs different, chemical reactions, there's messenger proteins that transmit signals, like insulin is an example there. And antibodies protect us, transport proteins, carry molecules around, for example, hemoglobin. So there are all these different roles that they have, and we need particular amino acids for each one. So it became important, of course, that we get all these amino acids. And there was research starting, well, in the 50s, we really started doing research at Harvard and different areas to find out how much protein we need and this kind of thing. And the amino acids that are in protein are actually, the ones that we need are called essential amino acids. And We thought for a while that possibly meat was a better source, but it turns out when we've understood it more depth that all the amino acids actually come from plants. Every whole plant food has every single one of the essential amino acids. And so when we get a mix of plant foods through the day, we easily get every one of these essential amino acids.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Okay, so this is great. So let's recap that for a second. So you're saying that protein is a macronutrient. So like a carbohydrate and fat, you have protein. So protein is one of those really important nutrients and it's responsible for lots of different things. It's not just for building our muscles, but it's also actually responsible for antibodies, which are sort of our immune system. It’s responsible for insulin. It's responsible for signaling. So getting commands from different parts of the body, you need protein for that. And so it has so many different unique roles, but it is a requirement. We do need protein. We can't live without it. And amino acids, you're saying, are the building blocks. So the building blocks of protein are amino acids and amino acids are essential to build protein.

Vesanto Melina

That's absolutely right.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Okay, great. So then are we saying then, and you said something about essential amino acids. Maybe you can talk about what those essential amino acids are and what do you mean that we need them? Are you saying that you can't build a protein without those amino acids?

Vesanto Melina

The different proteins have most of the amino acids, but in greatly varying proportions. Now, some of that have come of interest and perhaps we'll get to this a bit later are, for example, three branch chain amino acids: valine, isoleucine, leucine, particularly leucine. And these are really good for muscle building. I've been interested in this one because I'm a senior, actually, I'm 81, and I am interested in how we keep and improve even our muscle mass when we're older. And these branched chain amino acids are important for that. But There are other amino acids in muscle too. So all of them are used throughout the body in different ways and in varying proportions. We also find that when kids are little, we need a somewhat different mix, but pretty close to the same. And so we need these essential amino acids and then we can, there are nine of them, and then we can build the other amino acids from those. Sometimes when we have a situation of stress or injury or burn or something like that, there are a few that we need in greater amounts that are sometimes considered the non-essential, so they're conditional essential.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So that's great. So essential fatty, sorry, essential amino acids, you can't get from, your body won't make them.

Vesanto Melina

It won't make them. Yeah.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

It won't make them. There's no way to get them other than through your diet. And so classically, we always think about them coming from meat products because protein, if you eat a protein or an animal product, it seems that you get all of the amino acids and you get the protein. You eat protein, you get protein. So it seems like a very obvious thing. And you're saying that you can actually get them from plant sources. But why should I pick a plant source over an animal source for protein? And is one better than the other at giving me what I need?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, they sure are. There's a lot on that. And that's what we were fascinated with in our plant powered protein book to delve into this in a lot of depth. So I'll start and say a few things. So the Animal products have a lot of negative qualities. They have some components that can turn into TMAO that's related to cardiovascular disease. They have new 5G, which is related to cancers. And there are components that are linked to increased risk of chronic disease. We used to always think about saturated fat, but there's a lot more than that. And they also, the plant proteins have wonderful benefits like protective phytochemicals. And Brenda, did you want to say a few more things here?

Brenda Davis

Sure. You know, it's so interesting. For so many years, we determined the quality of protein based on sort of the amino acid profile. So those nine essential amino acids, there are 20 amino acids. nine of which are essential, six of which are conditionally essential under certain circumstances, and then five of which are considered non-essential. But the deal was for so many years, we rated animal products as being high quality protein sources or complete protein sources, simply because the protein in those foods is so digestible. And the profile, that essential amino acid profile matched human needs per gram of protein relatively well.

Vesanto Melina

Can I add something here? Yes. And it was also from thinking when rats were given one single food, The research was based on that thinking. Now, humans do not and should not eat just one single food for their protein. So it was a concept that we've really outgrown quite a long time ago. And when we get a mix of foods, of course, we get the whole mix. And it was also when protein was just limited to exactly your minimum requirement.

Brenda Davis

Exactly. And the other thing to recognize that a lot of people don't recognize is every single one of the essential amino acids is made by plants. So it makes no sense to think we can't get them from plants, it's where they come from. We get them directly from plants or indirectly by eating animals that ate plants, or, you know, very indirectly by eating animals that ate other animals that ate plants, but they come from plants. The problem with plants is that some plants that plant foods contain fiber. So those amino acids aren't quite as digestible because of the presence of fiber. And then there was the big issue and the reason why plant foods were called incomplete protein or low quality or whatever was because Some plant foods are short on, and it doesn't mean they're missing. All plant foods contain all nine essential amino acids. It's just per gram of protein. The amount was a little on the low side. So let's pretend, for example, just to give you an example, lysine. Preschool children need about 58 milligrams of lysine per kilogram of body weight. Adults need about 38. So let's say a child needs 20 grams of protein and all they get is 20 grams of protein. Each one of those grams would need 58 milligrams of lysine. Now, if all they're eating is white rice, they're not going to get enough lysine by eating 20 grams of protein. They would have to double or even more, probably close to triple to get enough protein from the rice. And so that's why plant foods were thought of as being less complete. But the reality is that plant foods contain a mix of these essential amino acids. And if you're eating a variety of foods and you're getting enough calories, you're going to get the amino acids you need, generally. I mean, there are some exceptions, but generally, we're getting all of the essential amino acids without any problem from a plant-based diet. Now, here's what the quality debate or discourse seems to omit. And that is, you know, it's always based on that amino acid profile and digestibility. But in my view, we need to factor in the health consequences of eating these different proteins. And there is very strong evidence that people who get their protein from plant sources have lower rates of death and disease than those who rely on animal protein sources. One of the most recent studies, a 2020 study that looked at over 400,000 individuals, well, it was almost 420,000, and this was from the United States, they reported a 10% drop in overall mortality, when just 3% of calories from animal protein were replaced with plant protein. And to put that in perspective, 3% of calories in a 2000 calorie diet is 60 calories. That's fewer calories than what you would get in one egg or an ounce of meat. And that study actually even quantified the impact of various   animal protein sources. And they found replacing 3% of energy from dairy products with plant protein, lowered risk of mortality by 8%. If it was red meat, it was 13% for men, 15% for women. And if it was eggs, it was 24% for men and 21% for women. So if you do the math on that, replacing a large egg, 2 ounces of meat and a cup of 2% milk with plant protein sources could reduce risk of mortality 54%. To me, that's a real protein quality issue, and we need to factor that in. And it's very similar results for cardiovascular disease, for diabetes, for cancer. We consistently see lower risk of disease and mortality from those diseases when we replace animal protein with plant protein. And of course, that's not even to mention the huge ecological benefit you have from plant versus animal protein. And Vesanto mentioned some of the components. If you look specifically at plant versus animal protein, well, animal products are high in a number of compounds that are more harmful or potentially pathogenic. And it's saturated fat and cholesterol and heme iron and Neu5GC and heterocyclic amines and the precursors of TMAO and endotoxins and chemical contaminants that move up the food chain. Whereas plant protein sources are rich in fiber and phytochemicals and the antioxidants and sterols and stanols and prebiotics and all of those things that are known to help to protect us. So I went a little long-winded there, but anyway.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

I love it, I love it. So I'm a big recapper because I think that people like to kind of think it through with you and you said so many awesome things. So one of the things that I think was interesting was that you said that all plant proteins have all the essential fatty acids, sorry, I keep saying fatty acids, essential amino acids. And the reason that maybe they're considered less good quality, or at least in the past they were, was because maybe the proportion of each essential feed or each amino acid was variable. And so that way that you gave that great example of the rice, that if you ate rice, you may get sort of six out of nine or eight out of nine or whatever, but you might miss one because it won't be as high in concentration. You'll still get it, but you need to have a lot more of it. And so that's why it was considered sort of less good quality. Then you also brought up an important point that I think is that you, well, let's talk about the animal products. Then you talked about animal products and you said, well, Animal products will also give you those essential amino acids, but it's offset by all of the negative things that you get from animal products, which is the inflammatory markers that go up. There's the changes in the gut biome, which is through trimethylamine N-oxide or TMAO. You talked about endotoxin, which is a gut flora issue. You talked about saturated fats, sodium, heme iron, all of these negatives of animal products. But one thing you said that caught me was you talked about the fiber in animal and plant products. So that actually is kind of a, maybe a negative in terms of absorption of protein. And so maybe you can talk a little bit about, because fiber, you know, I'm a very, you know, we're all very pro fiber in the, in nutrition. We believe that you should eat more fiber. It's good for the gut flora. It's good for bringing your cholesterol down. So, but we brought up a little nuance there in terms of protein and fiber and digestibility. So maybe you can explain that a little bit to us. And so we understand that a little better.

Brenda Davis

We'll go back and forth and I'll let Vesanto do that.

Vesanto Melina

So fiber carries out a few other nutrients as it passes out, but it's so good we have it because we're lowering our risk of colon cancer when we have this fiber. It just does some real, real benefits. So what we do, assuming that there's a little bit of loss of protein is just increase our advice to get 10% more plant protein than the official recommendation. So the official recommendation for an adult is 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. And we up that to 0.9, just thinking about this loss. But knowing that fiber is a wonderful thing, it's really a huge benefit. And it's really easy to get 0.9 grams per kilogram of healthy body weight. It's very, very simple. It's not a big deal.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Well, what do you mean by that? That it's so that it's easy because people in America in particular, or in every single day of my clinic, people will say, well, I just don't know if I'm getting enough protein. How can you reconcile? You said it's actually fairly easy to get, but people don't feel that way. People think it's actually very hard to get protein.

Vesanto Melina

Well, we're recommending that people do consume whole plant foods, lots. Now, so a lot of people are living on substantial amounts of soda pop and potato chips or, you know, some kind of chips for their protein, that kind of thing, sources that don't have protein in. And then they think they need some meat to round that out. But when you're eating lots of whole plant foods, you have the grains. 50% of the world's protein actually comes from grains. And people can get protein very easily from plant foods, but it's whole plant foods. It's not these really refined things like sugar.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, and I would add just a little bit to that to say that for people eating a plant-based diet who include a lot of lower fiber foods, for example, tofu and soy milk and peanut butter or other nut and seed butters, and so maybe a few veggie meats and those kinds of foods, those people probably don't have to add that extra 10% because they're getting so many lower fiber foods that are very high in protein. However, people that eat a truly whole food plant-based diet and are getting most of their protein from whole legumes and whole grains and other whole plant foods Adding that 10% is just, it's, the lower fiber foods, we absorb about 92 to 96 or so percent of the protein from those foods. For the whole plant foods, it might be somewhere in the neighborhood of, you know, 85 to 90%. And so it just makes sense to compensate if you want to be, you know, super safe. And it's also not that necessary if you're, well, I guess you're automatically compensating. But a lot of people, if you look at average protein intakes of vegetarians and vegans in North America, it's around the 70 grams per day. And at 70 grams for a lot of people, that's probably 25 to 55% higher than they actually require because the average woman, it's 46 grams, the average man, it's 56 grams. Of course, that's based on sort of a standard body weight that is used for average people.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

But do that actually, I'm sorry to interrupt, do that math a little bit for everybody. So the average woman, because I get a lot of women listeners, so I think that's important. The average woman weighs about this much and just do the math there.

Brenda Davis

Yeah. So, it's actually simpler than a lot of people think. So, if you're a person who's say 60 kilograms, you would mold.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Which is how many pounds?

Brenda Davis

Yeah, 60 kilograms would be what, 120, you know, or 130 or so pounds, I guess. maybe just slightly more because it's 2.2 kilograms per pound. And so what we'd be looking at there is if you multiply that by 0.8 grams per kilogram, you'd be looking at that person. So there's 60 kilograms, 0.8 would need 48 grams of protein, right? And for a man, if they weighed 80, if they were 80 kilograms or a larger person, then you'd be looking at about 64 grams of protein.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, I want to say something here. It's based on healthy body weight. So if a person is considerably overweight, their excess fat cells don't need this level of protein.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Okay, so that's a very important comment that you just made, that it's based on healthy body weight. So if you're carrying a lot of fat or adiposity, then that doesn't need that excess protein.

Vesanto Melina

That's right, yeah.

Brenda Davis

No, so if you weigh 300 pounds, you're not calculating your needs based on the 300 pounds. You're basing it on, and this is a little bit, you know, you have to kind of guess what your ideal body weight is. And you might say, well, my ideal weight from high school or college or whatever, and you would base it on that. What is a healthy body weight for you?

Dr. Monica Agarwal

That's excellent. So I really liked that explanation. So if you were to say that the average person needs about 48 grams or average woman and 64 for the man, how would somebody get that on a plant-based diet? For instance, what would be an example of a meals, meals for the day that would cover about that. And you're not going to hold you to it exactly, but generally, because people often, this is their worry, right? Is that on a day-to-day basis, everybody's worried that they're not getting enough protein. And so how would you do that? Like, what would you recommend? Give me an example of a daily meal.

Vesanto Melina

I'll say one day that I do and then say what you should do. So I start out with a smoothie each morning. That's what I like. And I put hemp seeds into it.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Okay, so are you saying hemp seeds are high in protein?

Vesanto Melina

They are. They're remarkable. And seeds are higher than nuts. They're quite amazing little critters.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

And hemp seeds in particular are very high in protein, right?

Vesanto Melina

And you get omega threes thrown into the mix. They're great. Yeah. And pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds are good too. So that's in my little smoothie with kale and so on. And then for lunch and supper, I always have some kind of beans or lentils or soy foods, always. So a big salad. And we have on our plantpoweredprotein.com website a food guide. People can look at the picture of it on that page, and it's really a very good balance for the whole day. People who are trying to lose weight might cut down a little bit on the grains, but other Otherwise, it's lots of vegetables and fruits, but you try and get those legumes in. They're the real heavy hitters for the protein. And my supper is very similar. Now, I do something different because I get low blood sugar sometimes, and I have always little cubes of tofu that have been marinated and put in the air fryer that I use as snacks. So I have extra little snacks that are very, very good. I'll actually show you a picture of what they look like. Sometimes it's tempeh, sometimes it's... So this is from our plant-powered protein book. And if you look in the middle there, those little cubes are marinated and they're just delicious. So if you just have those, instead of like grabbing a cookie or potato chip or something, I would have some of those at different times in the day. It easily makes my protein up to the recommended intakes.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

What about using a supplement, a protein supplement? Like even if you believe that it should be, there's lots of whey-based protein supplements and now there's even pea and green-based. Can you speak to that? I mean, why not just use those and put them all in your smoothie? Why bother with hemp seeds?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I could, but the hemp seeds deliver even more. They have the omega-3s, and I really like that. Now, I do have protein powders in my little shelf right near the blender, but I never tend to use them because I like the hemp seeds so much. But the protein powders, it seemed to me, thinking of the seniors group, would be really valuable for somebody who had muscle wasting, sarcopenia, and just wasn't eating that much. much and just to add to mixes because, and you mentioned whey powder. Now I think that there must be so much on the market because it's like a waste product for some parts of the dairy industry. But they found that soy is just as good for muscle building. And they're really good protein powders that have a mix of like pea protein and potato protein, corn, these all turn out to be quite good, the proteins extracted from these foods. So those are in protein powders too.

Brenda Davis

And I'd love to add a little bit to the conversation. So one of the things I think that it's reasonable to know is that three ounces of meat, poultry, or fish provides usually about 15 to 30 grams of protein. a cup of soybeans has 30 grams of protein. 3 ounces of veggie meat has about 20 to 25 grams of protein. A cup of lentils has about 18 grams of protein. You know, other legumes are 16 to 18 grams. A cup of tofu is about 40 grams of protein if it's a firm tofu. You know, a quarter cup of hemp seeds is 13 grams. If you look at 2 eggs, delivers 12 grams. A cup of milk, about 8 An ounce of cheese, about seven. Well, there are so many foods in the plant kingdom that are in that neck of the woods as well. A cup of grains is about 10 or 12 grams of protein. If it's kamut or wheat or spelt, it's about eight grams if it's quinoa. A cup of soy milk is about six to eight grams. So there are a lot of foods. Pumpkin seeds are like 10 grams per quarter cup. So there are a lot of plant foods that deliver this amount of protein. So if you're, as Vasantha went through her diet, but if you're at each meal thinking about, what is my source of protein? So at my breakfast, when I cook my whole grains, I add a little bit of small brown lentils, which you can hardly even notice. I use soy milk on my cereal instead of almond milk. I put seeds on top to add a little extra protein. I use a little bit of soy yogurt in the mix. And then at lunch, if I'm having my giant salad, I think protein, I'll put some tofu cubes, I'll use some beans, whatever on top, I'll make a hemp seed dressing. So I'm adding that at each meal. And so I know each of my meals is providing about 20 grams of protein, sometimes a little bit more, but in that range. And it's just not that difficult to do if you make some, sort of thoughtful swaps in your diet.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Yeah, so I love that. So I think to go back to your initial comment that we're only trying to get for a woman 48 grams and for a man 64 for the average person who's not a super athlete, et cetera, which I do want to talk about as well. But in 48 grams, as you pointed out, I can get 10 grams of protein from a quarter cup of pumpkin seeds. Like it's really, so if you're eating something consciously in every meal, like you brought up, you both have brought up hemp seeds, lentils, beans, tofu, all great sources, but people are afraid of tofu and people are afraid of soy. I've had people in my own family tell me, well, it's okay for everyone else, but I had breast cancer, so I can't have it. My oncologist told me I can't or I was told that this soy product is going to make me get breasts as a man. So I've heard these kinds of things and people are concerned about tofu. So people have voluntarily removed that as a protein source option and really focused. And so that kind of hampers their choices or reduces their choices. Can you speak about soy and your thoughts on it?

Vesanto Melina

Okay, well, soy is actually a huge benefit in these areas. But 10, 15 years ago, we thought it was a problem because soy has these compounds called isoflavones, which look a lot like estrogen, but it's kind of like estrogen with a change in the molecule.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

They call them anti-estrogens.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's right. And they actually can decrease estrogen's absorption. They have a remarkable effect, but they have some of the benefits of estrogen. So what we find is that when little kids have soy in their diets from childhood, and by the way, when people are choosing a plant-based milk for children, soy has way more protein than, say, rice or oat milk. It's a really good choice. But when they have that, they reduce the risk of breast cancer or prostate cancer in later life. Quite remarkable. And if people have had breast cancer or prostate cancer and want to reduce the risk of recurrence, again, soy is a benefit. So it's actually the opposite of what we thought. But what we thought was because of two guys. And these two guys, they were different ages. One was younger, one was older, and in different places. But one of them had 14 servings of soy foods a day. Amazing. Can you think of that? Like if you have two, that might be like soy milk once and tofu once, but he had 14 and the other one had 20 servings a day. And so they, and at the end of the year, developed mammary problems and they went to their doctors in different areas and the doctor said he quit doing that. The doctor was aware of that potential problem and within a while it reversed. But I think a lot of these anti-soy industries picked up on that message and just spread the rumors around. And so that was a foundation and got people worried. And somehow the rumors that soy is actually not only safe, but it's a benefit. Those rumors haven't spread as widely, unfortunately. So, but I know a lot of people are recognizing, hey, soy is good stuff. It really is.

Brenda Davis

Yeah. Just to add a little extra to that conversation as well, all of the people that are saying soy is dangerous or it's poison, to me, the acid test is to look at the longest-lived, healthiest populations in the world. And those are the people in the blue zones. And in fact, two out of the five blue zones use soy as a daily staple, averaging about two servings a day. And that's Okinawa and Loma Linda, the Seventh-day Adventists of Loma Linda. So to me, if in fact, some of the healthiest, longest with people on the planet use soy as a staple, it's probably not poison.

Vesanto Melina

So the people, the people who should avoid soy are those who have allergies to it, along with eggs and dairy and wheat and fish and seafoods. You know, it's one of the top allergens. And so those people should avoid soy, and also people who have thyroid problems that haven't been sorted out. If they could either make sure they have enough iodine, which is one of the ways of sorting out or get a hormone adjustment if that's what's needed for the thyroid. They should be avoiding soy until they get it sorted out. But otherwise, soy is really a good food and there's so many forms of it. You know, the edamame, the soy milk, the tempeh, and the tofu. And tofu is a very bland food, so you got to make it taste good. So we have different, in our book, different marinades and ways to use it that just make it delicious. So when you have people coming over that think they haven't liked soy and then they... taste it one good way, they go, maybe I could eat this once in a while.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So I love that. So a lot of things that are important that you both have said that are lovely. So soy is not the enemy. We want to eat soy. It's a great choice for a source of protein. It is not going to, it’s not going to increase your risk of getting mammary glands for men unless you're eating a crazy, crazy amount that's all, you know, of soy. And it's not going to increase your risk of breast cancer. And so I think that those are sort of the key points that I really like to highlight. I like tofu plain. I slice it up sometimes and just eat it. I have it in my salads plain. I really like tofu. My kids, they could not get enough tofu. You know, we eat a lot of beans. I'm Indian. And so we eat a load of lentils. That's probably, I must make lentils three or four times a week, chickpeas, lentils, or beans. And then the other two days or so, they love tofu and they love edamame. Like they're stealing edamame from the fridge. That's their snack of choice, which is always so cool. That's awesome. So let's talk about some different groups of people, because this is an area that I'm very interested in. And I'm interested in children, having three of my own. And you know, my son 16 and he's 6 foot 4 and he plays on the tennis team and my daughter plays a load of basketball and I they're healthy and I always worry about you just have to always sort of be conscious of protein intake, et cetera, making sure they're getting, truthfully, I'm not that conscious anymore because it's so part of our day-to-day. I don't cook anything. I just, that's what I make. Lentils today, beans tomorrow. So it actually has become, it's really not a big issue for me, but I know that people do worry about it for their children. Tell us a little bit about what kids need that's maybe different than adults and what simple ways people can add those components into their diet for their kids where they don't have to think about it so much, where they don't have to start measuring and thinking about amounts of protein. What simple things can they just add to their kids' diet to make it easy for them?

Brenda Davis

You want me to tackle this one? Okay. So are you wanting me to focus more on the protein or on all of the nutrients?

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Okay, yeah, let's just focus on protein for this conversation.

Brenda Davis

Okay, for sure. So you know what's really interesting in terms of total protein intake, there was the largest study ever done looking at intakes in toddlers. We found that all toddlers, whether it was the vegans in the state, there were 430 children in this study from Germany called the VECHI study. And whether they were omnivorous, vegan, lacto-ovo vegetarian, they all got over double the RDA. So, you know, vegans, it was 2.4 grams per kilogram, omnivores, it was 2.7, lacto-ovo vegetarians, it was 2.3. What the RDA is 1.05. So in that age group, they were all getting over. double what they need. So it's not that difficult. That having been said, for children, the concern is if a child is barely meeting protein needs, so they're picky eater, whatever it is, let's say they need 20 grams of protein, all they're getting is 20 grams of protein, and the child just wants to eat rice and doesn't want to eat much else. The amino acid of concern is lysine. And lysine is very important for growth and development in children. And so one of the things that's really important for parents to recognize is that it's very helpful for legumes to be part of the mix. And they can come in the form of soy milk. They can come in the form of peanut butter. But as you know, if you introduce a variety of foods at an early age, the children learn to love those foods if they're part of their culture. If you feed them lentils from the time they're little, they'll love lentils. And so we want to right away, one of the things my daughter did with her children was, you know, give them as a snack, you know, organic black beans from a can or kidney beans or chickpeas, and they would just eat them as a finger food. And so introducing them in that way, one of the most important things to me with kids is to make sure legumes are part of the mix and also some seeds and nut and seed butters and those kinds of things as well. And again, you want to think at each meal, you want to think about having something from each food group. So you want the grains, you want a protein-rich food, you want some fruits and vegetables, and maybe some seeds or nuts, and just to have these wonderful, complete, balanced meals. And then, of course, for children that are finicky, you can do smoothies that are higher in protein by adding the hemp seeds, using soy milk instead of water, using some frozen green peas if you're doing a green smoothie. There are ways of sneaking extra protein in. You can do serving. If you're serving pasta, you can use a chickpea or a lentil pasta instead of a wheat pasta and boost the protein by an extra 15 grams or so. There are lots of things you can do even if the kids are a little bit finicky.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

That was awesome. So I love that. Really well explained. So I think I love that. So what about, so I take care of a lot of athletes. And so this area is in particular interesting to me because athletes in particular worry about their protein intake in particular because they're trying to build mass. And so how do you work with the athlete? And then there's some data out there that says that vegans or plant-based people may have, or rather the data is vegans, have less protein. They don't get enough protein or they get less. And how do you work with that? And so people are interested in carnitine and medium chain triglycerides. How do you, how would you speak to those different topics? So just to review, how do athletes who are sort of performance athletes need to manage their protein? And second, are you able to get enough protein eating most only plants? Third, do we need to supplement or is there any harm in supplementing with carnitine and medium chain triglycerides?

Brenda Davis

Okay, so let's unpack that a little bit. So first, I'll address the question of quantity. So we mentioned before the RDA is 0.8 grams per kilogram per day for adults. We might up that to 0.9 for people eating whole food, plant-based diet. Now for athletes, there are no separate RDAs for protein. However, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and the American College of Sports Medicine recommend 1.2 to 2 grams per kilogram per day for athletes, depending on the type of sport being done, depending on the training. So generally, you're looking at the lower end of the range for endurance athletes, 1.2 to 1.4, unless they're ultra endurance. And if they're ultra endurance, they may need to be more at the higher end, 1.6 to 2. Now, athletes who are strength athletes, they'll need about 1.6 to 2 grams per kilogram body weight. And if they're preparing for a competition, getting super lean to sort of cut fat, they may need to go to 1.6 to 2.4 because they're restricting calories and you don't want to lose lean body tissue when you're preparing for a competition. So all that having been said, that sounds like a lot of protein. And people get really worried that they're not going to get enough protein eating plants. However, if you do the math, and let's say you've got an 80-kilogram athlete, so that's a 175 pound or whatever athlete who needs 120 grams of protein per day, say 1.5 grams per kilogram body weight. If that athlete was consuming 3,500 calories a day, that would be less than 14% of their calories from protein. And I think that is super easy to do on a plant-based diet that just has a little bit of emphasis on protein. You're making sure you've got a decent source at each meal and with your snacks. And with athletes, there are usually plenty of snacks during the day. So it's not, you know, it's so much more difficult for a senior who needs a little extra protein. So maybe 1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight than it is for an athlete because seniors are eating fewer calories, whereas athletes are eating often massive amounts of calories. So I'm not saying you don't have to be concerned about protein. You still want to be a little protein focused because you need protein to build and maintain muscle mass and for so many things, for recovery and so on. So you do want to be somewhat protein focused. but it's not as difficult as many people believe it is to get enough protein. And I, looking at the studies of sort of comparing plant and animal protein, we have some really good studies that have shown very comparable. When you take the same amount of plant protein versus animal protein, and they're both fairly concentrated, you're looking at a soy protein powder or a plant-based protein powder versus an animal-based, generally you get really similar results. I think one of the most definitive studies was one done in 2021 comparing protein at 1.6 grams per kilogram in 26 omnivores versus 26 vegans. And the muscle gains were identical in both, pretty much the same. There were no differences. And so, the bottom line is that plant protein can support, muscle gains. It can support, resistance training. It can do all of those things. And now, some plant-based athletes wonder about special amino acids like leucine or leucine, isoleucine, valine, these branched chain amino acids. And so they think they need to take supplements of those. And you mentioned carnitine and also, you know, creatine and beta-alanine are, you know, these are others that are very, very commonly used in athletes. And I would say that generally, you know, these can be convenient ways of boosting protein, especially branched chain amino acids, but I don't think they're necessary. And Vesanto and I, in writing the book, analyze the, you know, menus to look at how much leucine are they actually getting. And, you know, you'll see a lot of recommendations saying they should be getting 2,000 milligrams of leucine per meal or somewhere in that neighborhood. And our menus actually came out, I think we did one menu, it was almost 9,000. and milligrams of leucine. And it wasn't a menu that was very hard to achieve. It was including, you know, even foods that you wouldn't think would be rich sources of leucine. One of the richest sources is seitan, which is made from wheat. I mean, seitan is lower in lysine, but it's very high in leucine. And so it's, you know, yes, you can use some, you know, supplements, but you don't necessarily need to. And I mentioned beta-alanine and creatine. The creatine is probably the supplement with the most evidence. or help with bursts and high intensity activities, strength, muscle mass, all of that. And vegans definitely have lower levels because there is no direct source of creatine. We make it in our bodies. And so some strength athletes do find using supplements of creatine can be helpful. But it's not absolutely necessary. Beta-alanine is another one that, beta-alanine is used to make carnosine, which can prevent lactic acid buildup. And so some people will use that. And then you mentioned carnitine. I think this is one of the sort of conditionally essential amino acids. But our bodies make it, and it can fall short for premature infants, people with kidney dysfunction. But generally, we make plenty. And endogenous production is really thought to be quite sufficient for healthy people, even for athletes. But in order to make all of these things, the beta-alanine, the creatine, the carnitine, all of those things, we need to make sure we get enough protein. And with carnitine, you think about carnitine, well, we need iron, vitamin C, and vitamin B3 and B6 to produce. carnitine efficiently. So it becomes important that the diet is well balanced. And though while we have slightly lower muscle or lower blood levels of carnitine, we don't, as vegans, have lower muscle stores, which shows that we're probably producing enough. And I just don't think a supplement is warranted of carnitine, particularly. And just to some people that do supplement for whatever reason, they probably shouldn't be taking more than three grams a day because it's associated with nausea and vomiting and GI disturbances. So there are potential downsides to consuming some of these supplements.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So that was great. So just to re-go over that, it sounds to me like you're saying that athletes definitely have to be more conscious of their protein intake, especially performance athletes and people who are strength athletes and they need, or bodybuilding athletes, they have to be more conscious of their protein. So you're okay with them using kind of a soy powder or some sort of a powder in a shake to sort of, if they're feeling like they're not getting enough, but they also shouldn't necessarily worry that they're going to get less than somebody who's eating animal protein, and just as long as you're getting enough protein, usually you're going to get all of the amino acids that you're looking for. And then you're also saying, I think, that creatine in particular, which is quite popular among athletes right now, is not negative, there's not a real negative to taking it, but you certainly don't always need it. And it's the certain amounts of them can have associated side effects like nausea, vomiting, GI effects like stomach. And actually there's some renal failure data on things like creatine as well.

Brenda Davis

Yes. And just to add, sorry, go ahead, Vesanto.

Vesanto Melina

The athletes is that these are elite athletes that we're talking about. They're not just somebody who's going for a hike on the weekend and going to the gym during the week, you know, which we thoroughly recommend. That's covered in the official recommendations. You know, what we suggest is 0.9 per kilograms healthy body weight per day. And even that has a safety margin. So again, people on regular diets who are doing their best to keep fit are not needing these high amounts.

Brenda Davis

And that's an excellent point. We're talking about competitive athletes here, the endurance athletes, the strength trained athletes, and these are people that are working out a lot and eating a lot and training, you know, pretty intensely. And just to get back to the creatine, just, you know, so people, so people understand, there's some evidence that does suggest plant-based athletes may benefit more from taking creatine than omnivorous athletes because their levels are naturally lower. But there is a really specific protocol for taking creatine. And the National Institutes of Health suggest doses of no more than 20 grams a day divided into 4 portions. And so if you're doing it, you want to You want to do it properly. And if you have kidney disease, you definitely want to avoid it. So it's, you know, it's not something you should take lightly. Do your research if you're going to be taking this step.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Great. Thank you for highlighting those key points. What about MCTs?

Brenda Davis

Well, MCTs, I think, are really quite interesting. So just to explain what they are, these are fatty acids. They're medium chain triglycerides. And medium chain triglycerides are defined by some people as being, you know, fatty acids that have 6 to 12 carbons. Some people say 6 to 10 carbons. But what people are taking are called MCT oils. And MCTs are concentrated in tropical oils like coconut oil and palm oil. And so MCT oils on the market are generally a combination of capric acid, which is a 10-carbon fatty acid, and caprylic acid, which is an 8-carbon fatty acid. Some of them are 100% capric acid, some of them are 100% caprylic acid, some are a combination, and some include sometimes smaller amounts of lauric acid, which is the main in medium chain triglycerides in coconut oil. And lauric acid is a 12-carbon fatty acid. And the oils are actually for medium chain triglycerides for MCT oils. The oils are extracted from coconut or palm oil by a process called fractionation, where they're isolating these particular medium chain triglycerides. And the buzz around MCT oils is really about improving endurance exercise or aiding weight loss. And the MCT oil provides a really quick source of energy because it goes straight to the liver where it generally gets oxidized rather than stored as fat. Unless you're eating too many calories, then of course it'll get stored as fat. But for weight loss, it could be somewhat helpful if you're replacing long-chain fatty acids with MCT in an equal amount. But if you're just adding MCT to this, like let's say you typically calories and you just add MCT oil to your 2000 calorie diet. So now, you know, a tablespoon of oil is what, 120 or 130 calories. It's not going to aid in weight loss. It's only if you're replacing some other oil with MCT oil that it might provide some benefit. It's still a little controversial. But I think it's important to know we have a 2022 systematic review of MCT oil supplementation on endurance performance in healthy populations, and they did not find improved energy exercise performance, no effect on respiratory exchange ratios, glucose concentrations. fat or carbohydrate oxidation, any of that stuff, lactate concentration. So it really didn't seem to provide much of a benefit. And for me, there is also advice about maximum dosages, not having more than 30 grams or an ounce of date because it can cause GI distress and diarrhea, which you don't want when you're doing an insurance run. Last thing in the world you want is diarrhea. But to me, the biggest one of the biggest downsides is the sort of ecological damage caused by all these palm oil plantations that are, there to provide all this fat for MCT oils. To me, a beet juice would be a much better choice as an ergogenic aid than MCT oil. So hopefully that answers the question.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Super helpful. I really like the answers to those questions. So thank you. Vesanto, I want to ask you a question about one other population that you brought up, which is the senior, because I do take care of so many seniors who also, you know, you see them every time and they're shrinking breaking down and their caloric intake certainly decreases as you noted, but then how to get that protein into their body despite sort of that decreased caloric intake?

Vesanto Melina

That's right. I've had to consult sometimes with facilities that were serving a senior's population and help the cook, who's an overworked cook in the kitchen, you know, figure out, okay, how do I deal with these three vegetarians or one vegan or something like that to get the protein in? And there are so many foods on the market that could be used. I also have been a consultant for the prison system, which, you know, has a number of people that are They're even older and we have a vegan menu in the corrections facilities and they do that in some states. I know we do. And so it's important to include institutional foods and these could be cooked in batch and frozen in portions if you're using lentils or beans. For seniors now who are living on their own, there can be real challenges that they're encountering. One thing we find that's an advantage is that if people have dental problems, tofu is a real good addition instead of meat because chewing is a lot, lot easier. Our recommendations in North America are not different. The RDAs, they're not different for seniors. But in some European countries, they are higher, like 1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram healthy body weight. So it is important. So what people really need to focus on, and I mentioned earlier what my kind of meals are, is there's lots of veggies and salads, and then there's the protein. You really emphasize it at every meal, there's that. And one other one that I'm kind of an easy, like things to be easy for me person. So I'll maybe only cook two or three times a week, prepare food, you know, and then in quantity. And then another one that I have is a bean salad. And this is so easy to do. All you do is open up a few cans of beans, and canned beans are perfectly fine for protein and for minerals. And then you have some corn, kernel corn, and chop up a pepper, have a little bit of a marinade. And it can be sitting in the fridge for several days. You know, we can have a salad that we make, and it lasts in a covered container for a few days. Our salad dressings have protein too. For example, a lemon tahini dressing will deliver not only protein because of the seeds, the sesame seeds, but the calcium as well. Or you can just go to the store and get some hummus. and dilute it with a bit of water or lime juice or lemon juice, and that makes a good dressing. So there are ways to keep it really, really simple. And we've certainly included menus like that. Now, we did mention back to the protein powders. So for somebody who really doesn't have much appetite and their muscles are kind of fading away, one of the big important things to do is to get some exercise. Because you can't just eat protein powders and expect your muscles to keep going. So you've got to do the combination of eating the protein foods and moving your muscles, you know, the different ways. A little bit of weight-bearing exercise, even if it's a tiny weight. Some, you know, stretching, some walking, meeting up with friends and having a walking group, that kind of thing makes a big, big difference.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, and just to add a tiny bit to that, it can be challenging for seniors because when you're saying your protein needs can increase by 25 to 50%, but your caloric needs decline. So you're having to get more protein on fewer calories. And so if a senior is aiming for 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram body weight and they're already kind of tee and toe seniors, it can be really challenging. And so you're looking at, for a lot of seniors, 60 to 80 or so grams of protein per day, which means you need 20 to 30 grams of protein per meal. And so it means you do need to... think about protein sources at each of those meals and you really want to focus. So like Vesanto has done and I've done as well, is to focus a little more on the legume family and a little less on the starchy foods. So we'll have, because of the smaller caloric requirements, so we'll have more beans, more tofu, and a little less of the grains and starchy vegetables, smaller servings of those things, for example.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

That's great. So suggesting that those starchy foods fill up your tummy and have more calories, but in sort of to get more for your buck, so to speak, to have it focus more on those bean sources or legumes and maybe less on potatoes and other kind of things that will fill your tummy, but don't necessarily give you all that excess protein. So that's great. That's fabulous. I have kept you a long time. I want to just round out with two or three other little quick questions. What do you think about the soy protein isolates and then moving on one step better maybe to Impossible and Beyond Burgers, to name a few of the new sort of, and without sort of maybe specifically saying which burger, you know, out of, or just sort of talking about plant-based burgers, maybe we'll call them. And then what do you, and if you have a moment, maybe we can also just briefly touch on the Paleolithic diet. Sounds great.

Vesanto Melina

I'll start with a bit about the burgers and the Beyond Meats and that kind of thing. I'm really impressed at how many people; I've been to two vegan festivals in the last week and the lineup beside the van producing.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

They love it, people love it.

Vesanto Melina

People love it, they do. And so it's all kinds of people that want things fast. Now, Brenda and I really support the Whole Foods plant-based but we're really glad whatever people are choosing, you're still doing an environmental advantage, the health advantage, it doesn't have some of the contaminants of meat. It's just a tremendous positive and it can make it really easy for people. So those various types of meats, and I'm glad they're coming out with different options. You know, they fit different populations and people are being very creative about this. So I appreciate it a lot. With the powders, they're extracted, and we don't want a hexane extraction, but there's water extractions used. People can look at different products.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

But again-- What does that mean, Vesanto? What do you mean about the extractions?

Vesanto Melina

Well, some of them were extracted with hexane. Can you add to that, Brenda?

Brenda Davis

Yeah, so when you take protein out of food, you need some sort of method of getting it out of the food. You're getting concentrated protein. And so sometimes hexane is used. This is a fairly potent chemical that you're not wanting to consume, put it that way. And normally there aren't a lot of remnants of the hexane in the soy protein powder, but there may be a little bit. And so generally, if you choose organic soy, you won't be getting any, they don't, they can't use hexane when they do an organic extraction.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So when you do a soy protein isolate, are you using that extraction technique?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, yes. But with the organic, it's with water extraction. Yeah.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So you're saying that an organic soy protein isolate makes you feel better because the extraction is using water versus hexane, which is not seen in the organic world. So are we okay with organic soy protein isolate in general then, because you're extracting it in a benign way? Do you feel all the phytonutrients are still there when can you extract it? And what about that? And then you're not actually having as much fiber, so maybe it's absorbed better.

Brenda Davis

Yeah, to be honest, I haven't seen, like a lot of the data that I've looked at on hexane is more when they're extracting the protein to make veggie meats. I haven't looked at it as much with protein powders. I would assume that's a very similar scenario. When you extract something like protein, or when you extract fat, or when you extract concentrated carbohydrate, it doesn't matter what you're extracting, but when you extract a macronutrient like that, you're generally leaving behind the phytochemicals and the, you know, there are very few, like even veggie meats, if you look at the isoflavone content, Much lower than it is for whole soy foods. So you do lose a lot of those protective, you know, you lose the fiber, but you lose a lot of micronutrients and a lot of other valuable components like plant sterols and so on and so on. So these are more isolated compounds for sure.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So I think that's an important point. So, and this is what I often say when I give talks too, is that, yeah, they're not awful, but the extraction technique is not optimal. And when I think of hexane, I think of bladder cancer. And so I don't know if that link has been made with soy protein isolate or not. I haven't looked at that but we're talking about the extraction technique. If you do it organically, then maybe you're just extracting water, but you're also losing all of those phytonutrients or not, maybe not all of them, but you're losing half of them. So if you have to choose between a soy protein isolate and a soy protein, why wouldn't you pick the soy protein? So that's great. So, and if we could just round out, this has been such a fabulous conversation. What, and I already know how you're going to answer just based on the animal product conversation we had early on, but just because people always ask about this in particular, which is the Paleolithic diet, and maybe just a quick overview on what the Paleolithic diet is and how Is there a role for the Paleolithic diet?

Brenda Davis

Well, I'll tackle that one. The Paleolithic diet is really a diet that tries to mimic the diet of our long-ago ancestors during the Paleolithic times. And one of the things about diets back then is they did tend to be fairly high in protein, around 30% of calories from protein 20 to 30% or so. And so the focus of Paleo diets in today's world is on getting lots of protein. And so these diets tend to be diets that are very meat centered, but the sort of the good sort of side of paleo diets are they tend to be fairly low in processed foods. So the diet tends to look like lots of meat with plenty of fruits and vegetables and some maybe sweet potatoes and things like that. But they're a fairly moderately low carb diet. They're not anywhere near as low as a keto diet, for example, but they tend to be very animal product heavy. And that for me is a concern that increases risk of morbidity and mortality, for sure. And so that's the big issue. But what people don't realize about ancient paleo diets is on average, people were consuming about 100 grams of fiber a day, 100 to, you know, the ranges is sort of 70 to 150 grams a day of fiber, about 600 milligrams of vitamin C, about 7 to 10,000 milligrams of potassium. Now, these are things that are concentrated in plants, of course. So fiber is only in plants. Vitamin C is mostly in plants. So this means they were eating a truckload of plants. And so it was a lot, and the Paleolithic followers today on the Paleo diet don't even come close to approaching those numbers. Vegans actually come way closer to approaching those numbers than people eating a so-called Paleolithic diet do. In fact, I did the math, I did the research, I compared, you know, looking at all of the nutrient intakes. And I think the paleo diet that people are doing today came closer to a true paleolithic diet on about three nutrients, and a vegan diet came closer on like 13 nutrients. So in fact, I think vegans are eating way closer to a paleo diet than, and the big nutrient that is closer on a paleolithic diet is protein. But otherwise, and all the micronutrients and even the carbohydrate and fat, the vegans were closer. So it's important to know that. And I think there are some big disadvantages of a Paleolithic diet in terms of the red meat intake and the processed meat intake. I know they're probably not supposed to eat processed meat, but they do. They're munching on pepperoni sticks. So there are some big issues, I think.

Vesanto Melina

One of the other things is that the first part of the Paleo diet, the first, about 80%, They couldn't catch animals very well. They weren't really good at it. It took them a while to get the whole thing figured out. So they were mostly gatherers. They might catch a mouse once in a while or something like that, but it was really hard to catch something. So the early paleo was plant-based, but people aren't always aware of that. They're going for the higher protein, but without all the vegetables and fruits.

Brenda Davis

That's such a good point, Vesanto. So the first 80% of the Paleolithic period was essentially very close to vegan because they didn't have dairy products either. And then, and then the second, the last 20% is where the hunting got added to the mix. But even then, those hunters were we're consuming an average of about 100 grams of fiber a day, which means, the average vegan probably gets 50 or 60 or 70 grams. So more than the average vegan in terms of fiber intake. So I think that's worth mentioning too.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Amazing, amazing. So I just love that conversation. Actually didn't know that history, which I really enjoyed hearing about how we're, you know, the Paleolithic times were mostly plant-based, that they may be sucked as hunters and actually didn't eat a whole lot of animal products, yet that's how we're, you know, that era is named for, this caveman diet. And yet most of it was high in plants, high in fiber, more fiber than frankly, even our plant-based people are getting. I mean, those are really interesting. interesting and incredible points. So Greta and Vesanto, you guys truly are amazing. I learned a lot here today and I always like it when I get to interview people where I learn a lot. And so I really enjoyed the conversation, in particular about athletes, because I do find them to be a very interesting cohort of people. And I also, and a spin, wasn't thinking about which was seniors and an area where I also am very intrigued by and really want to kind of think and digest a lot of what you said and going to pull up some of those papers. I think that everybody needs to go buy this book, Plant-Powered Protein, because what I love is that when you start the book, you, in a very simple way, you explain a lot of this stuff about what's an amino acid, what's a protein, why should we think about branch chains, and why should we think about building proteins? I really like the way you did that, and I really like that you kind of explain it simply, but also without pulling away from the true science and sort of the parts that we need to know, like branched chain amino acids, like why should that be even a thought for us? And okay, well, let's start thinking about leucine and why should we think about lysine and essential nutrients, et cetera. So I thought it was a fantastic book. I was really happy to see it. Definitely going to add that to my archive. Plant Powered Protein, Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina. Take a look in the show notes and figure out, buy the book, get it on Amazon. It's so awesome. and just really listen to these people who actually really know what they're talking about. So I do, as I started this podcast because I was sort of frustrated by how much is out there that doesn't really handle the issues well, or there's just a lot of, information that's not accurate. And you're getting the really, you're getting excellent information from 2 very knowledgeable superstars in this space. And so listen to the podcast, listen to and go buy the book. So thank you so much. Great to see everybody. And thank you so much for being on the show.

Brenda Davis

Thank you. Can I just say one other thing? There were actually three authors and the third was my son, Corey Davis, who did an incredible job of the section on ecology and the environment and the impacts of our protein selections on that piece. And he's speaking as well on that topic.

Vesanto Melina

I'll add something there that made our book number one on Amazon in the US for sustainability category. Oh, I love that. People are really fascinated with chapter five. And the other thing that's important is we had Recipe testers. We've got a team of them. Whoops. Whoops. And I've got to go, but for my fitness class. But we had good recipe testers that wouldn't let anything into our book without a five-star rating.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

So. I would love to talk to Corey in particular, Brenda, because I am the medical director of a farm and we're really focused on sustainability, climate and food quality in relation to it. So that would be really interesting. And I'm so glad.

Brenda Davis

He would love that. He has some very unique and very thoughtful perspectives on these issues.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

We'll do that. Well, we'll definitely connect. Thank you so much. Thank you for being on the show. And we'll talk again soon.

Brenda Davis

Thanks so much for having us, Monica.

Dr. Monica Agarwal

Hi, this is Monica. I hope you enjoyed the podcast as much as I did recording it. If you're looking for additional opportunities to take control of your health, check out one of my online workshops where you can take a deep dive into concrete steps to foster change. Visit askmonica.me/workshops. That's askmonica.me/workshops to learn more. If you're looking for more specific advice for your own personal medical condition, I offer telehealth visits where we discuss your personal concerns and create an individualized plan. Find all the details at askmonica.me/visit. That's askmonica.me/visit. Thank you for joining and be well.