Rick Esselstyn

For many of us, it is camping season. And if you guys like baked beans, you will love our all new sweet and smoky chili. It's a tangy, subtly sweet chili featuring plump, oversized pinto beans, fire roasted red peppers, and ancho chilies. It has this robust flavor from roasted garlic and caramelized onions. and we have created a mouth-watering meal solution that's packed with protein and fiber. It's your favorite campfire food without any of the refined sweeteners or excessive sodium. Fun facts, in making this dish, we use layer on layer of roasted and smoky flavors from red bell peppers, onions, garlic, paprika, and sun-dried tomatoes, it was beyond challenging, but it was so worth the wait. This is a sweet and smoky chili, but there's no refined sugars and it's sweetened with whole blended dates. I hope that you try this PlantStrong team favorite. It's available online at PlantStrongFoods.com. And in June, come into a whole food market near you. I'm Rick Esselstyn, and welcome to the PlantStrong podcast. The mission at PlantStrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PlantStrong journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show. We joke today that there are three things that plant-based eaters must face. Death, taxes, and the question, where do you get your protein? today we tackle that ever-popular topic of protein with two of the authors of Plant-Powered Protein. Vesanto Melina, along with Cory Davis, dispels so many of the myths and misconceptions about plant-based protein, and, this is the part that I love, make the science understandable and digestible. So let's put to rest that you can't get enough protein at various stages of life, including pregnancy, infancy, childhood, adulthood, your senior years, and even for the athletic population. You can. And this book shows you how to do this with easy-to-follow protein recommendations and recipes so that you never feel deprived or deficient. Let's also put to rest those myths that plant protein is somehow weaker or not complete. Whole food plant-based sources of protein are not only superior to our animal sources but also have a lighter carbon footprint and the ability to reduce the risk of chronic diseases. Welcome Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis. to the Plant Strong Podcast. All right, here we are, another episode of the Plant Strong Podcast. And we're going to be tackling a subject that, you know, it really to me doesn't need tackling, but we're going to tackle it because as Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis write in the very, this is like the first paragraph of their new book, Plant-Powered Protein. They write, for plant-based eaters, there are only three certainties in life: death, taxes, and where do you get your protein? So we want to tackle that. Once and for all today. Uh, so Vesanto and Cory, how are you guys doing today? Where are you?

Vesanto Melina

Very well. I'm in Vancouver Canada. Oh thriving.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, that's just delicious place to be, isn't it?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, and I’m thriving at 81 years old.

Rick Esselstyn

Wait, you're did you say you're thriving at 81 years old?

Vesanto Melina

I am yeah, this year. I did a little um mini triathlon and um Yeah, and keeping fit in all kinds of ways and healthy. I want lots of old vegans around. I do.

Rick Esselstyn

I know, you can't have enough old vegans around. That's great. Now, Cory, your mother is Brenda Davis, the infamous Brenda Davis that's probably written 115 books on being vegan and plant strong. So are you kind of following in the family footsteps?

Cory Davis

I'm certainly trying to. It's big footsteps to fill, that's for sure. But going on a different route. I'm a professional agrologist, which is the science of production of agriculture, pretty much. It encompasses other fields such as agronomy, soil sciences. So my passion is really in the environmental science realm. And I'm zooming in here from Courtney, British Columbia, which is on Vancouver Island. A beautiful place to live and be.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. I was there once for a wedding. One of my good triathlete friends got married there and it was heavenly. So the Santo, Cory, how did this book come to fruition?

Vesanto Melina

Well, I'll start with this. Our publisher wanted us, and we, Brenda Davis and I have written books together for 30 years. And our publisher said, write a book about protein. And we said, there's no problem getting enough protein. We don't need to write a book on that. And he said, well, that's what people always ask about. We need to have one on that topic and really get a lot of things clear. And so we reluctantly did. And then we found it fascinating to write all about the different sides of protein. And so our book came about and then we had the wonderful advantage because there's been such an interest in environmental issues in climate change lately. We had the wonderful advantage of including Cory about different protein sources and how they impact our effect on climate change.

Rick Esselstyn

Wonderful. And I definitely want to dive into that. And this whole, well, really, there's a whole chapter or two in the book on global protein and how we have a planet that is in major peril right now because of it. And so, Cory, I look forward to you talking about that. But first, let's start by taking a step back. Let's set the stage. Plant and animal protein. Where do we start, Vesanto?

Vesanto Melina

Some people have noticed that there's really big animals that are vegan. They eat plants. Can you think of how many there are? Like gorillas and hippopotamuses and moose and just all kinds of animals, cows, horses, which eat plants. And they have lots of muscles and big bones. And so that's one of the clues that we have that this can work. Now, of course, our metabolism is slightly different. But the other area that people have questioned a lot is, you know, can we get all the amino acids from plant foods? And it turns out that every single amino acid we require comes from plants. So even the animals that are carnivores get their amino acids from the plants as well.

Rick Esselstyn

Right, right. Would you say that, I mean, let's, I want to, so is the most, in your research, because let me say that you guys, in this book, you provide an absolute ton of scientific studies, tables, charts, nutritional analysis showing, you know, how plant-based protein is absolutely a high-quality champion type of protein. So would you say that, you know, would you say it is superior to animal protein or inferior to animal protein, or is that not a way to look at it?

Vesanto Melina

Well, the actual protein is equal, including in bodybuilding. So there have been studies for athletes and studies for seniors, because as seniors, we can develop sarcopenia, we can lose muscle mass. And they find that if you're eating, say, soy or you're eating some animal protein, you have equal development of muscle mass. So they're really equivalent. We got on a wrong track early because a lot of the research was on rats. And of course, I've been around for a long time and seen this research. My dad was a physiologist and so I was really interested in science right from the beginning. But with these rat studies, rats double their weight from week four to week eight, double their weight. And that was the kind of studies that were done. Okay, what foods will do that best? Well, cheese does it well and animal proteins, they also grow fur. all over their body. And that takes certain sulfur amino acids. And humans actually do not typically want to double their weight in four weeks. They don't. And they don't want to grow fur all over their body. We have really different goals for health than these weanling rats. And so in the 50s, that rat research kind of put us on the wrong track. But we find with humans that the plant proteins work perfectly well. And soy is a strong contender for building muscle mass.

Rick Esselstyn

I want to come back to the soy and building muscle mass in a little bit. But you mentioned how, these tests that were done in the 50s with rats and how they basically, they're different than us and that they double their weight, you know, very quickly when they're young. But isn't a mother's, A rat, a mother rat's breast milk is what, 51% protein, if I'm not mistaken?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, but these were weanling rats that they studied.

Rick Esselstyn

Weanling, okay.

Vesanto Melina

Weanling means they just got off the mother's milk.

Rick Esselstyn

Weanling, that's what that word means, weanling. Okay, so they were weaned off the breast. Okay, okay, okay. I'm with you now, I'm tracking you. Okay, and so they were fed then, what? You're saying cheese and...

Vesanto Melina

I tried different things. Okay, we'll give them some rice. And that was another thing with these studies that wasn't very accurate. They'd give them one thing. Okay, how do little rats do on rice? How do you do on cheese? How do you do on some other animal protein? And then they'd track their growth. So that was what put us on the wrong track. It wasn't only that they need different types of protein. They only got one kind of protein. Now, no humans want to live on only one thing.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. So one of the things that a lot of people talk about is like, what is the digestibility or the bioavailability of this particular ingredient or source of this food. And you guys talk about it pretty extensively with different proteins, right? That's right. Plant versus animal. And I, when I was interviewing Colin Campbell, this is probably a year ago or so, He, and I'm trying to remember exactly, so I may not get this right, so try and help me out here. But I believe that he said that, you know, for a protein source to have a high bioavailability isn't necessarily a good thing.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

Right? Because it can then incite the growth of, you know, Latent tumors and cancers and things of that nature. Does that ring a bell with you?

Vesanto Melina

He knows a lot about that aspect of things, right? And what we find is that there's about a 10% difference. in the digestibility between plant protein and animal protein. So we add that into the recommended intakes. It's not officially in the RDAs or recommended intakes for vegetarians that they need 10% more. And we find that if they're eating some of the things like tofu and peanut butter that are very easily digested, we don't add it in. But typically when I'm working with clients, I just add in 10%. And it's not hard to get at all. Like they're usually way up there anyway on a plant-based diet. But we do add the 10% for digestibility of plant foods being a bit different. And that's because there's lots of fiber in there. Now fiber and the reasons that cause that different digestibility, that's a huge benefit in many other respects.

Rick Esselstyn

So, okay, that was going to be my next question to you, and I really wanted to challenge you on that is because I would think that that fiber is there intentionally by mother nature, so that it's not as digestible, so there's not as great of a bioavailability. So then why are you asking people to then add another 10% on top of that?

Vesanto Melina

Because that means the absorption of the protein might be a little less. The fiber kind of sends it whooshing through a bit.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

And so we just want to add and make sure. Now, we haven't found protein deficiencies. When we have these huge studies like the Adventist Health Study and look at the protein intakes, we're not finding protein deficiencies in plant-based diets. People are easily getting enough.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, I would think so. I mean, as far as I know, I don't know of a case of kwashiorkor that's been reported in North America in the last, you know, decade or so. Do you?

Vesanto Melina

No. And we used to look at that in the, in the 60s and 70s. We saw they'd have these flag signs in their hair, a little white section where they didn't have quite enough protein to make their hair black, but they had enough to keep their heart going. So the body goes very cleverly. Yeah, let's go for the heart and not worry about the hair getting white. You know, that was Kwashiorkor signs. And that was happening in other parts of the world, not in the developed countries. And we seem to have sorted that out quite well. in time since.

Rick Esselstyn

Wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to make sure I understand what you just said. So what did you say about the hair turning white? What was that?

Vesanto Melina

It's called a flag sign. Remember we had little pictures. I was teaching at university.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, I know nothing of what you speak of right now.

Vesanto Melina

So they'd have their little section of hair and they'd have a white section. It's called the flag sign.

Rick Esselstyn

Like Josie and the Pussycats?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. And that was where their protein intake was so low that their body would go, oh, we're not going for putting melanin coloring in the hair. We're just, we can't afford any extra protein for that sort of thing. We'll just keep the heart going.

Rick Esselstyn

Okay, So you are attributing that white spot in the hair to somehow or another, maybe a lack of protein that is not going out into the roots of the hair because it wants to focus on like some of the important organs?

Vesanto Melina

That's exactly what happens. Our body's quite clever, but it was one of the really clear signs of Kwashiorkor.

Rick Esselstyn

And why was that happening then? Like were these people that were, what were they, that they were getting these white streaks of food?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, yes, important point. They were not only short of protein, they were short of calories. Like they just weren't getting enough food. So their food was just insufficient supply all around. And in the process, there was insufficient protein.

Rick Esselstyn

Okay. And why were these people not getting enough calories? What were they doing?

Vesanto Melina

They were in developing countries. There just wasn't enough food around.

Rick Esselstyn

Okay, okay. I thought, I completely misread what you said. I thought this was like, in the '60s, I was thinking protests about Vietnam or something like that, and people were maybe not eating to do something like Gandhi or something, but no, okay.

Vesanto Melina

No, it wasn't that, it was just developing countries.

Rick Esselstyn

Okay, all right. All right, so, how of all the macronutrients, carbohydrate, fat, and protein, would you say that one is more important than the other? Because it seems to me that this country has put, let's just say North America, has put a huge emphasis on protein above everything else.

Vesanto Melina

An emphasis in Where, in the meat and dairy industry promoting their products?

Rick Esselstyn

No, I'm just saying as a registered dietitian, as an Rd. right, in your opinion, is there one macronutrient that's more important than any other?

Vesanto Melina

Well, we certainly need them all. We need carbohydrates to run our brain. And people on low-carb diets don't seem to know that and can get the carbohydrate very low. But our brains are fueled by carbohydrates. You need at least 150, 200, 300 grams of carbohydrate a day. So that's important. There are essential fats that are required for building around the cell membranes. That's important. And they build our brain as well. And then the protein is really important for a lot of reasons, sending messages to different parts of the body, having different compounds built that we require, and of course for muscles, but they're all really important. Now, we had a little bit of a thinking time around needing more protein in the depression. There was this idea, a chicken in every pot, that was about to be a really good idea because people were, at that time, short of calories, short of all kinds of things. And so that was thought to be a very positive thing. Now, since then, we really have put a halo around protein that you should get it. And it turns out we have lots of food. We have vegetables, fruits, grains, and also the legumes. And we're not short of protein at all. We don't need to be having this animal protein halo anymore.

Rick Esselstyn

No, we don't, but it is there in spades. And I can tell you, I just walked the floor of Expo West, which was out in Anaheim, California, about 3 weeks ago. There must have been 8,000 different booths. Each booth was a different food company. I'd say of those 8,000, and I'm not exaggerating, 90% were plant-based. companies and almost everyone was basically had a call out on the front of the package saying this many grams of protein. So it's like everybody is marketing the amount of protein on the front of their packages and they're in Cory and Vesanto And they're doing it by putting in all these soy protein isolates and concentrates and pea protein that probably are not healthful types of protein. Do you agree with that or not?

Vesanto Melina

Do you want to say something, Cory? Yeah.

Cory Davis

How will you go for it? It's certainly better for the environment in a lot of regards. Going for the soy protein isolates and pea protein specifically has a very low carbon footprint and low footprint in general in terms of water use and pollution and so forth. But I think the question here is really, is it healthy? Is it more healthy to be eating?

Rick Esselstyn

Well, yes, and Cory, I couldn't agree with you more there on the kind of the carbon footprint, the size of the carbon footprint. But Vesanto, my question specifically here is they're basically trying to, instead of using whole plant-based foods that have all the protein you need, they're trying to jack it up to the moon by putting in pea protein concentrates and soy isolates and whatever that's not a whole food, that doesn't have all the fiber and the antioxidants, the phytonutrients and all these things. And I just, I don't think that that is a smart thing, and I'm wondering if you think it is or isn't.

Vesanto Melina

Well, I have clients work with people all across the spectrum, and I'm more glad that they go plant-based.

Rick Esselstyn

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. So if they're going to eat some veggie meat, that will help them get there. That's okay with me, and then I have clients that are really, really purists. They only want to eat whole plant foods. In fact, my husband's... a lot. He likes, the beans, the vegetables, simple foods, all kinds of people I know are like that. Neil Bernard, and so I'm happy to support people wherever they are on the spectrum. And I see those foods as helping people often. initiate this stage of eating. So it's okay, I don't put it down too much, but I think you're absolutely right that the whole plant foods are really the goal. They're where it's at because they have these protective phytochemicals. They have all kinds of other aspects of healthy nutrition. You know, when you isolate a protein, you use chemicals to extract it, you remove the other nutrients. So I kind of can put a foot in both camps.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, well, and what I've read and heard is that when you have these plant alternatives that are made without any whole food ingredients, it's just pea protein isolates, it's soy concentrates that make up these soy dogs or these soy nuggets or these soy burgers, that it really jacks up your insulin-like growth factor number one, your IGF number one, which is a tumor and cancer promoter. And so usually with the people that I'm dealing with that are overweight, sick, they're trying to get healthy, we advise against it. Now, I hear you if you have, you're working with a half Ironman triathlete that's, maybe trying to get their protein stores up and eating becomes a, a fourth event.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. And I just had a relative come over that, isn't on the vegan wavelength at all. He thinks he'll never be vegan. I bet he will, but anyway, eventually. But he found one of these new veggie burgers. He said that one was the best one. I wouldn't mind actually eating that one. So I'm glad, you know, to have that as a start. Now, even if you look at the things like the veggie burgers or the meat alternatives, you'll find some that are actually made from whole plant foods. Yeah, once I've had a sort of cooking class and we had 10 kinds of veggie burgers and people got to try them all. And that's kind of a fun thing to do, to look around the different SKUs and shelves and see what there is there.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that you guys write about in the book, and I want to talk about it just for a second, and that is how Basically, animal products and animal byproducts have been subsidized tremendously over the last several decades. And I think you guys write about how there's almost 20 billion annually that goes to subsidies. And of that 20 billion, a small little sliver of a fraction goes to support and subsidize plants. Don't you think that, I mean, what's it going to take for our governments to realize that let's have a pound of ground beef, which is what you talk about in the book, if it wasn't subsidized, it'd be $30 a pound. Let's have that be the case. It will dissuade people from buying it. And then let's really bring down the price of all these fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans. That seems like an absolute no-brainer.

Vesanto Melina

That's right. And I think people could be writing to the government. Now, governments are struggling to cover the massive costs we've got with COVID and all the financial struggles have been. We could be writing to the governments and saying, quit subsidizing meat and slaughterhouses and dairy. Those things are all very, very heavily subsidized. And that started in the Depression when farmers were struggling. And understandably, the government started to help them out with the livestock industries, for example. But in North America, I spoke last year to the California dietitians and half the dairy farmers had gone out of business in the US. But it wasn't there were less cows. They were all just at these huge factory farm situations. And those are the people getting the subsidies now. And in Canada, I notice we've got slaughterhouses subsidized. Like the situation's crazy. And we have subsidized medicine here. In the US, people pay a lot for their medical care. And then we're subsidizing foods that cause those diseases. Like that's nuts, absolutely nuts. So the government could be inspired to cut back on those subsidies, just saying, hey, you could save a bit of money here. You could save a lot of money here.

Rick Esselstyn

A lot. All right, so Cory, anything that you want to add to that whole conversation about subsidies?

Cory Davis

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting topic. Of course, when we subsidize a product and then put it on the global market, we're artificially reducing that price on the global market. And countries that don't have the resources to necessarily support their livestock sector like we can, end up forcing those farmers out of the market entirely. So in impoverished or less well-off nations, a lot of the livestock industry had to exit the market entirely because they can't compete with the artificially suppressed cost or price of things like beef and other heavily subsidized products. So that's something to take in consideration. Millions of people could be uplifted out of poverty if we shifted the way that we are subsidizing certain products. But the monetary, how we subsidize livestock and agriculture goes far beyond just the monetary handouts. I mean, for example, there's been large campaigns against predators, bears and cougars and wolves. And when a wolf takes a cow, for example, oftentimes we will compensate the farmer for that cattle or that cow or sheep that got poached by a wolf. And so that's something to take into consideration, how we partition land too. Like we offer forage on the natural grasslands. That's a part of the commons, as we would call it, or even indigenous land. And we partition that out and give it away very cheaply, lease it out, tenure it out. And in the early days of settlement, we literally gave it away. to the agricultural sector. So those are other pieces that might not often be considered in when we add up what kind of subsidies we're giving to the agricultural industry.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, nice points, Cory. Vesanto, I want to come back to you. And so in your opinion, what percentage of our calories should ideally be coming from protein. And according to your research that you guys did for this book, how much is the average person's protein consumption exceeding what it should be? And are people, in fact, protein toxic?

Vesanto Melina

Oh, okay. Well, we want at least 10% of our calories to come from protein, at least 10%. Very few plant foods provide less than that, so it's not really an issue. What we find overall in people's dietary patterns, say the Seventh-day Adventist studies that have had maybe 90,000 people and significant high numbers of those vegetarian or vegan or eating fish, they've looked across the spectrum, and these are healthy eaters. they're still easily getting the amount of protein, whichever the dietary patterns. And then we find that the meat-based diets in the general population are often close to double the recommended intake. And certainly that can be hard on your kidneys. It has a lot of negative health effects down the line for being so high in protein. So there are many factors in meat that are leading to different chronic diseases. The new 5G, and when I first started being a dietitian teaching university, you know, we thought it was saturated fat and we thought, you know, we weren't sure quite what it was that was leading to these high intakes or high results of cardiovascular vascular disease, diabetes and so on. But we've got TMAO, we've got new 5G, we've got a number of things that are linked with cancer and heart disease.

Rick Esselstyn

Endotoxins.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, endotoxins, that's right. And one of the other things about subsidies, just going back there for a second, is that it's not only the livestock industry that's being subsidized, but it's the fodder. Huge amounts go to the fodder and huge amounts go to things like corn, corn syrup, corn for pop, this kind of thing. So we're subsidizing really crazy foods that are linked with chronic disease.

Rick Esselstyn

You used the word fodder? What's that?

Vesanto Melina

Fodder. That's a cows eat.

Rick Esselstyn

How do you spell that?

Vesanto Melina

F-O-D-D-E-R. I'm Canadian.

Rick Esselstyn

Okay, fodder. Kind of like that in weanling. kind of got me today.

Vesanto Melina

Okay, good. I'm Canadian, so.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, so you guys have a beautiful chart in your book. There's one on page 61, there's one on page 62, and on the one on 61, you basically talk about all the protective aspects that are in plant-based proteins, right? Starting with antioxidants and the essential fatty acids and of course, fiber that most people are sorely deficient in. You know, Cory, before we came on air, I heard you talking, bantering with the Santo saying something like, well, you know, don't ask me where I get my protein and then I won't ask you, you know, how high your cholesterol level is or something like that, but fiber, it seems like, And everybody, most of the people walking around today are deficient in fiber. Agree, Vesanto? That's right.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. And that fiber supports our healthy, healthy, healthy gut microbiota. They love it coming down the tube. Yay, more of that. And when we send things like meat and different animal products down, we support more of the negative gut microbiota.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, but I mean, I want to ask you something point blank, and I want you to answer to the best that you can. And my question is, if you had to be deficient in something, would you rather be deficient in fiber or deficient in protein? Given those two.

Vesanto Melina

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna choose.

Rick Esselstyn

Well, Cory, would you like to play the game?

Cory Davis

Sure. You know, health aside, I would be deficient in perhaps protein because it might reduce my environmental impact, right? If we're getting protein from animal sources, it might reduce the ethical burden of harming animals. And those are things that I also deeply value. I deeply value the environment and animal welfare. And so I think if I had to compromise, perhaps it would be the protein.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, I agree. And everything that I've read in Vesanto, it's like, it's almost impossible for us as you, unless you are like literally not consuming an adequate amount of calories.

Vesanto Melina

That's it.

Rick Esselstyn

Your body will basically recycle the proteins, you know, from your muscles and utilize those.

Vesanto Melina

That's true. Yeah, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, and the reason I'm saying this is because it seems like, 75% of this country is overweight. The number one gastrointestinal issue facing North Americans is constipation. You know, we've got a, you know, all this colorectal cancer that's going on right now. I feel like this lack of fiber, this deficiency in fiber. I think I had Dr.  Will Bulsiewicz on the podcast, he said 95% of this country is deficient in fiber. What percent of the country is deficient in protein?

Vesanto Melina

That's right.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. I mean, really, really. And so anyway, I went off on a tangent there, but all the protective benefits, you got the fiber, you got the phytochemicals, you got the plant enzymes, you got the plant sterols, the prebiotics, the probiotics. It's like plants are just like, they're the bomb. They're the absolute bomb.

Vesanto Melina

Now, I'll tell you one place that we are low in protein occasionally is on highly fruit-based diets because fruit typically is under 10% calories from protein. So I have had a few clients and I actually taught at Living Light for a while, the raw chef school, and we got them to include some cooked foods as well as, you know, raw fruits. But I have seen a few people that were low when they were really focusing on raw fruits.

Rick Esselstyn

And so tell me, okay, so low, so you mean like low in protein?

Vesanto Melina

Low in protein, low in iron, low in zinc, low, and they'd lose their menstrual periods if they were women, that kind of thing. But that's a very unusual diet. And the other ones are very, very low calorie, which could be a senior that's hardly eating anything or somebody who's anorexic. Those are the places, the only places.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, so where, I mean, I just find it so asinine that we have 95% of this country, I'm going to come back to it and just harp on it, that's deficient in fiber. And we have all these issues that are going on because of it. We have nobody that for the most part is deficient in fiber. I mean, I'm sorry, deficient in protein. And yet, it’s like we still, as you said earlier, we still have this health halo around protein, and almost all Americans think that the only way to get an adequate source of protein is from animals, a dead animal. That's right. It's crazy. So anyway, I'm gonna get off this for a second, but let's change it into, so what about complete versus incomplete sources of protein?  'Cause there's still this whole, I think, set of people that think that, okay, plants may have protein, but it's certainly... is not a complete source of protein. And if you're going to eat your beans, you better do it with rice so you get all nine of your essential amino acids.

Vesanto Melina

That's right.

Rick Esselstyn

What's your thinking on that?

Vesanto Melina

And the only protein that is actually incomplete, really doesn't have all the amino acids, is gelatin that's made from animal bones. That's the only one. All the other, like the plant proteins, they have every single amino acid, you know, whether you're talking rice or beans or broccoli or whatever. But what we suggest is that the best choice in your whole diet is to get a mix of plant proteins. So you want the grains. And if you're trying to cut back a bit on weight, you can make that a little bit low. The legumes are the real superstars of plant protein. And the vegetables really have plenty. Even when I was working with these raw people, they'd have huge salads and lots of lettuce and different vegetables and so on. And that's a good source of protein. And the nuts and seeds can be real powerhouses. I just found pistachios and all the different nuts and seeds. And every one of these foods delivers a whole lot more in terms of protective phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, and so on. So the only one that's a little on the low side is the fruits, but of course they deliver all the vitamins that are so protective and the potassium and so on.

Rick Esselstyn

Well, thank you. I love telling people because I think it makes sense that all and again, I want you to like affirm what I'm saying here. And that is that all of the essential amino acids, the nine essential amino acids, the mother source of them is plants.

Vesanto Melina

That's right, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

And then, so if animals have them either, and they got them either directly or indirectly from the plants, just know that this is the kind of the queen bee of the amino acids, it starts and it kind of ends with plants. And as you just, as we just rattled through, when you try and get them from animals, you're also subjecting yourself to, would you say an inferior source of protein or a problematic source of protein?

Vesanto Melina

No, the meats have the amino acids too.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, I know that.

Vesanto Melina

They do have a lot of other junk with it.

Rick Esselstyn

I agree. But I've also heard that they're too high in the sulfuric-containing amino acids.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's what the rats needed to grow their fur.

Rick Esselstyn

Right, the methionine, maybe?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

Right, but then turns into homocysteine and promotes inflammation. So my point being, I tell people, Listen, the thing about plant-based proteins is they're like the Goldilocks. It's not too much, not too much, it's like the perfect amount. So you're saying that there's some of the amino acids that are in meat that actually, you said it, they're harsh on the kidneys and the liver. They promote inflammation, things of that nature, right?

Vesanto Melina

Now, we got on that funny track in the 1970s and I was around Diet for a Small Planet. Francis Moore Lappe said, you got to eat the beans and the grains together and then you'll get the whole. And that put us on the complimentary protein idea. And then 10 years later, she said, oops, I made a big mistake. That was not true. But that didn't hit the headlines or stick in people's heads quite as much.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, no, it didn't, did it? No. All right, so just to sum all this up, plants, whether it's raspberries, whether it's steel-cut oatmeal, whether it's honeydew melon, they contain all nine of the essential amino acids, just in a different kind of proportion and combination, right?

Vesanto Melina

Slightly different from one to the other. And so we do suggest a mix that in our food guides that are in like plant-powered protein book, we have a, this is a good pattern to follow. And it's related to national food guides, like particularly the Canadian one has really close to this pattern and the American is moving in that direction. So, you know, we just show people you should eat a mix, and then you not only get the protein, you get all the amino acids, but you do get the vitamins, the minerals, the essential fats. We're looking for things like iodine and, you know, just get the whole pattern of what you need.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. One more question, and then I want to come to you, Cory, and I want to talk a little bit about the environmental costs of our protein choices, but Vesanto, So, so many people, especially men, are worried about kind of getting a complete protein, getting enough protein to basically create this muscle tissue, correct?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

And so, you guys write about how there's branch chain amino acids, and then specifically how the leucine is a little shy in a lot of plant-based foods. And so that's the one essential amino acids that needs to be kind of where you need to up the ante. Is that correct?

Vesanto Melina

And with seniors too. Like I haven't been so worried about it with athletes because athletes eat so much food, they're gonna get all that stuff anyway.

Rick Esselstyn

Good point.

Vesanto Melina

Typically. But the seniors, which, you know, I think our next book will be plant-based seniors, but we're reading Really, we don't absorb quite as well. Our recommended intakes are officially not higher, although in Europe, they're upping them for seniors, the recommended intakes. But we really need to get enough protein. And one of the things that I've found good, because I found soy was a really good one, is I have these little marinated tofu cubes that I eat. I have them in the fridge. I just marinate them a little bit, put it in the air fryer, and there's these little cubes, and you can just grab them like you'd grab a few potato chips, except that it has the protein in it. And I think it's really important for seniors. Sometimes when I was trying to work out, okay, how would this senior in a care facility or at home that doesn't eat very much, they're dentally challenged, you know, all that kind of thing, how would they get enough protein? And so sometimes these branched-chain amino acids and, you know, those supplements can help a bit when we're wanting to really boost muscle mass.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, and for the listener, when you say the branched-chain amino acids, we're specifically talking about leucine, isoleucine, and valine, correct?

Vesanto Melina

That's right, and especially leucine, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

And what are your thoughts on supplementing with branched-chain amino acids or leucine? Is there any data that supports that? Is that a good thing?

Vesanto Melina

There is, yeah, there are limitations. We put very clear guidelines for the different types of people on dietary patterns, and including for seniors. But I really did find it a challenge thinking about somebody who wasn't eaten much, you know, whether it's older. So I looked at the research very carefully. By the way, all of our research is on our website, plant-powered protein. on a link called references because we couldn't we weren't allowed to have that many pages in our book so we put it on the website so they can look up everything you know exactly where you get this and that where's the reference about building muscle mass is as good on plant foods as it is on animal products.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, and I mean you have again the number of charts that you have that really paint out a really nice, clear picture of what's going on with plants versus animals. I found this. So Cory, let's bring you into the fold here, okay? I feel like I've left you out. So chapter seven is a planet in peril, right? Global protein. And I want to read this first paragraph, 'cause I think it's really powerful, and you guys say, the view of meat eating as a symbol of masculinity, status, and strength is deeply embedded in our culture. Yet, as the global population rises, this view becomes problematic because it's at odds with health, humanity, and the sustainability of fragile ecosystems. And the crazy Unfortunate thing is, as you guys talk about here, over the past century, half century, the per capita protein supply has increased from both animal and plant sources. And here you have a chart of all these different countries and how the amount of animal-based protein has gone up significantly. The only one that hasn't is Zambia. Cory, I would love for you to comment on a planet in peril and our insatiable quest for more and more and more protein.

Cory Davis

That's right. I think it's ingrained in our culture. There's a strong force, this inertia of masculinity being tied with meat because It's tied with barbecuing, nothing more masculine than putting this big red piece of meat on the BBQ or going out and hunting, right? Hunting has really been tied to masculinity. And so for the males who might be listening, they might have felt this, right? It's really strong, it's really difficult to break free from that culture or challenge that culture. It's hard for me to challenge my friends. You know, I bring tofu to the barbecue, right? And I'm kind of a bit of an outsider. I'm not part of that in-group. And I think the question is, how are we going to market? The masculinity also of going plant-based, because I don't think that prostate cancer and those health issues tied with it are very masculine at all. Look at you, Rip. Look how healthy and fit you are and how masculine you are. I mean, I think that is the way forward.

Rick Esselstyn

Thank you. I am dripping with masculinity, as are you.

Cory Davis

That's right. I'm six foot one. I'm around 200 pounds. I feel masculine. I feel full of testosterone and I'm very feeling active, you know? So I don't feel like I'm lacking in that area. But I think one thing that we don't often tied to masculinity is the values for environmental sustainability, for humane treatment of animals, right? And if we want to sustain, you know, masculinity was often associated with longevity, right? Being the protector. And I think masculinity, the people who share that masculine culture need to take back that protector role and protect the planet and be stewards of the animals as well.

Rick Esselstyn

Bravo, bravo. Great. I couldn't agree with you more. I love it. What about the environmental costs of our protein choices related to like land use, water use, our carbon footprint? Speak to that, Cory.

Cory Davis

Yeah, for sure. Well, there certainly is a trend. When you look at what are the biggest impact products versus the lowest impact products on all those categories of water pollution, land use, greenhouse gas emissions, you find a trend here where the highest polluters and the highest emitters and the highest users of land tend to be animal-based products. And the lowest impact users, like the products that use the least amount of water, pollute the least amount of water pollution, those tend to be plant-based products. And so just by tending to choose more plant products, being on more of a plant slant, reducing your intake of animal-based products, you're almost certainly going to be minimizing your impact on the environment, which is more important than ever and more in our face with the release of the IPCC report and trying to meet that target of not surpassing 1.5 degrees Celsius. And the agricultural sector alone could force humanity past that 1.5 degree limit. So agriculture certainly has to be part of this discussion of climate change in particular and water use. Take water use, for example. A study came out fairly recently that surveyed water use for fresh water from rivers, specifically in the western United States. And they found, and this was quite shocking even for me, that animal feed crops, specifically for dairy cows and cattle, are driving fish endangerment and water shortages in the entire Western United States region. So they're by far one of the biggest users of water in that region. And it's also slightly ironic because cattle farmers, quite sadly, have had to cull or kill their own herd in the face of drought.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. Yeah. It's real. It's here. And I can't think of a more powerful way for each and every one of us to be true stewards of the environment than to, as you just said, go on more of a plant slanting dietary pattern. and it can't happen fast enough. I've had some people on the podcast, Cory and Vesanto, who have said that according to the newest numbers, the amount of global greenhouse gas emissions that are caused from animal agriculture represent 81% of all of these global greenhouse gas emissions, 80, between the life cycle of these animals and between the supply chain, getting these animals, to restaurants, grocery stores, warehouses, all that stuff, 81%. That's like crazy.

Cory Davis

It's possible. I might not necessarily, I don't know if it's 81%. It's quite the challenging and complex topic, because we're talking about opportunity costs. When we're using big numbers like 81%, I believe Rao came out with a paper in 2020 or 2021, somewhere around there that postulated that if we were to rewild that swaths of area that we've cleared for agricultural purposes, perhaps, we could say that the sequestration of that could lead us to a conclusion that animal agriculture in particular has quite a significant emission potential or greenhouse gas. So it's that opportunity cost. Are we rewilding land? I'm not sure if 81% is, I'm not sure about that figure. I'll send you the study. Yeah, I've read the study. In particular, you know, there is a paper that came out in Nature Sustainability, a very big journal, saying that we have been underestimating the opportunity cost of animal agriculture. And that's something that definitely deserves more research. Now, at a minimum, you know, and this is just at a minimum, animal agriculture is comparable to all the tailpipe emissions from planes, trains, and automobiles.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, at a minimum.

Cory Davis

At a minimum, that's not including any of the opportunity costs, which I think deserves quite a bit more research. But at a minimum, so with the same vigor and passion as we hear, Climate activists saying ride your bike more, drive less, buy a hybrid. We should hear with that same passion, eat less meat and eat more legumes.

Rick Esselstyn

Really? We really should. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Solar, electric cars. Legumes, legumes.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, I wanted to make a point here that people think about paleos. Well, those paleo people had twice the fiber intake of vegans. They ate a lot of plant foods. I think they were out finding whatever plant they could manage. Once in a while, they might have managed an animal, but it was not a meat-based diet in very, very many of the little paleo communities. It was plant-based.

Rick Esselstyn

How much fiber do you think some of those, you know, paleo people were consuming?

Vesanto Melina

That was like a 100 and more. And vegans are around 60 grams. We require, you know, 20, 25 grams. A lot of people are 15. So the paleos were really big plant eaters and they got a lot of, they got so much calcium from plant foods. It was amazing how they did.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

So you guys, you have like... I'm going to say five chapters about all the different stages of life and kind of what the protein requirements are, starting with pregnancy and lactation. You have infants and toddlers from birth to three. You've got children and teens, four to 18. You've got athletes, and then you've got the energetic elders, as I think you referred to them, Vesanto. Is there anything that you want to... hit in any of those groups that you think deserves attention, but you've done a wonderful job in the book of talking about all the kind of what you guys, what are the recommended amounts and how to achieve those.

Vesanto Melina

I think we were just very careful to go through the different stages and specify where things can come from, what to emphasize. Say that soy milk is significantly higher in protein than rice milk. One gram of rice milk per cup compared to 6 to 8 grams in soy milk. And a lot of the non-dairy milks have more protein. The suppliers are starting to think about that more because when you've got your little toddler that will barely eat anything, they run around all over the place and you wonder how they're getting fueled, you know, you really want to be careful that what they take in is nutritious. So we've just been very careful to be specific. But we find that the kids are actually doing better. Say there's studies about teenagers that are vegetarian, did better health-wise than the non-vegetarians. So we're not too concerned and there have been big studies. And I want to say about Cory's and the environmental, just add something, the plantpoweredprotein.com, there's a link for references and Cory's references are wonderful. There's a whole big list of them that people can look at and he's even been adding a few recent ones because the references about environmental impacts are coming out. They're just quite a little flow of them. There didn't used to be any. Now there are increasing numbers of very well done studies.

Rick Esselstyn

Wonderful. Thank you, Cory. So I'm going to, towards the end of your book, you have 10 ways for piling on the protein. And I'm going to throw out a couple of them, and then if you could just talk about them. So number one, you just actually referenced it, but I think it bears repeating, and that is you say use high protein plant-based milks. So soy versus rice, right?

Vesanto Melina

Especially for little kids. Like if you like almond milk in your tea, great. But for little kids, we want to emphasize that.

Rick Esselstyn

Well, like for example, if you just use, like for myself, I'll just use me for example. I have some Eden Soy, right? It's got 8 grams of protein per eight ounces. So I typically have probably 12 ounces on my cereal in the morning because it's a big bowl. And then I have probably 6 ounces in the evening as a little snack after dinner with my cereal again. So just in my soy milk on my cereal, I've got 16 grams of fiber that I'm just knocked back. Super simple. You also say eat three or more servings of legumes a day.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah. And that doesn't mean beans, beans, beans.

Rick Esselstyn

What does it mean?

Vesanto Melina

It means like with your soy milk at breakfast, you nailed it. There also are soy yogurts and other foods like that. There's scrambled tofu. And then at lunch, you could have say a lentil soup or something like that. My husband often has on his breakfast, peanut butter on toast. That's what he likes. It's so quick. Peanuts are a legume. They're in a pod. Legumes are things that are in pods. So we've got 20 kinds of legumes. And so if people had a legume that they didn't like, like their mom made a kind of soup when they were a kid they didn't like, well, there are a lot more from around the world, just wonderful tasting items.

Rick Esselstyn

Nice. And then another tip that you have is to make tofu and tempeh a regular part of your diet.

Vesanto Melina

Right. And some people won't do that because they're allergic, but it's in the top 8 to 10 allergens along with dairy and wheat and eggs and fish and seafood and all that soy. So some people are allergic, but it's a really good choice. It has very available protein, little fiber. It's just a terrific source and made with calcium and the soy foods, by the way, deliver iron, whereas dairy products don't. They even block iron absorption to some extent.

Rick Esselstyn

Good point. And just for people that are wigged out by soy, specifically a lot of the women that are concerned about the estrogens that are in soy, can you address that for a second?

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, so we had these funny two studies that were done ages ago on two guys. that one ate 12 servings of soy a day and one ate 20. I don't know how they managed it, if they got it for free from the company or what. But anyway, they developed breasts at the ends of the year, very slight breasts, went to their doctors. They were in completely different locations. One was 19, one was 60. And that led to the rumors of soy causing problems for men. 20 servings a day will cause problems, seriously, or 12. But it reversed after a while. They stopped doing that silly thing. Now we're suggesting, you know, one or two or three even, that much servings a day is fine. But the isoflavones in soy are not the same as estrogen. They actually are an advantage. They can block our estrogen absorption. So some of the understandings about soy, and we were questioning all this stuff, you know, scientists look at things very carefully, but we find that it actually can lower your risk of breast cancer by having soy foods, and it can lower your risk of recurrence of prostate cancer to have soy foods. So they're an advantage.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, I've had Christina Funk, Dr. Christina Funk on the podcast. She's a breast surgeon here in the States, and she just cannot be more of an advocate for soy products for women that are concerned about breast cancer, have had breast cancer, and to not steer away from it. Yeah, because of those protective elements you talked about. So another one of your tips is to add these veggie meats, I guess because they're full of the isolates and the concentrates and they're high in protein.

Vesanto Melina

People can add those. I went to a natural foods expo on Sunday too, and there were so many of them. It was amazing. So all these little companies starting to produce different things. Yep. So they can work for some people.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah. And you also like people to throw on some seeds. So give me an example. How would I throw seeds into my life?

Vesanto Melina

We keep a jar on the counter. We say nuts and seeds, but we've got cashews on the counter because my husband loves that. We have in our muesli or granola, we have nuts and seeds. And seeds are even slightly higher in protein than nuts. And they also deliver zinc, which is really important. We had actually a joke in our first book because sperm is contains zinc. And so we said that these really lusty guys should keep a jar of cashews by the bed. That was our joke.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, nice. Cory, let's do that. I'm bored. Are you, so when you say like, feature like tree nuts in your diet? Do you have a recommended amount? Because as you talk about early in the book, one of your beefs with beef is that, yes, it's got protein, but it's got more fat than it does protein, essentially.

Vesanto Melina

The meats that we think of as protein foods often have more fat than protein. They don't have any carbs, but they have at least 50 even higher amounts of fat, calories from fat, than of protein.

Rick Esselstyn

Yes.

Vesanto Melina

But we could call them fat foods instead of protein foods.

Rick Esselstyn

But wouldn't you say that's also true of nuts? And I'm not saying nuts are a bad thing, but if people think that, oh, you want to get more protein, eat nuts, and now they're eating four or five ounces a day and that's a thousand calories and 80% of those are coming from fat.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, and we don't recommend that people go overboard on any particular food group. The nuts and seeds and the things like pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, sunflower seeds, they're high in zinc, in iron, as well as protein. But, you know, it's like a little snack. It's something you might keep in your vehicle, you know, to grab some on the way when you're going somewhere. I put hemp seeds in my smoothie, this kind of thing. But you don't need huge amounts of them. And they also deliver the essential fats, the hemp seeds, flax seeds, chia seeds, walnuts. So they deliver some really good fats.

Rick Esselstyn

I think seeds though, in my opinion, are different than nuts. See, I don't think people have a tendency to overdo seeds, like chia seeds or fruit seeds. Usually you put a tablespoon, maybe a tablespoon and a half on your cereal and your salad and your dressing or whatever, and then you call it good. Nuts, on the other hand, I just want to come back to nuts. I think people have a tendency to overdo the nuts, especially when you go to Costco and you get a big drum of pistachios or cashews or almonds, and they're roasted and they're salted, and you just can't get enough. Enough.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, you can't eat huge amounts of salted peanuts or any of those high-fat foods. You know, why is there? The legumes are brilliant. They're really low fat, typically, like 3% calories from fat.

Rick Esselstyn

Do you have a recommendation on the amount of nuts that people should eat a day?

Vesanto Melina

We suggest one to two servings a day, like a couple of tablespoons. I always put in my smoothies in the morning, I have a smoothie that's kale and orange juice and banana and hemp seeds. sometimes oranges, and I put about three tablespoons of hemp seeds because it delivers some good omega-3s and some protein. They're as high in protein percent calories as many of the animal products, the hemp seeds. So that's a good amount, up to three tablespoons.

Rick Esselstyn

Well, you have a chart in this book that has like all the different protein values of, it must be, you know, 100 different foods. Like, do you know off the top of your head what percent protein or hemp seeds?

Vesanto Melina

I think it's about 29, but I don't remember all that, but we use the USDA.

Rick Esselstyn

21, it's 21.

Vesanto Melina

21.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, 21. Yep. But the reason, and like, for example, walnuts, right? I mean, walnuts are 14%, black walnuts are 14% protein, but they're 80% fat. So again, I just, I'm coming back and I'm harping on this, people, that we got to be intelligent about what we are piling on because we may think that, oh, this is a great source of protein, but it's also an even like more wonderful source of fat.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, that's right. And we put menus in that book. And I work out the menus really carefully to make sure they've got enough magnesium and zinc and, the different nutrients we need. Because if you go way, way overboard on one food, then you'll run into trouble. You know, you can't fit into the calories and you get short of some other nutrients. So we work them out. The food guides and the menus are worked out that way.

Rick Esselstyn

Well, and your menus look phenomenal. Like you have 30 recipes. This is your gado-gado bowl on page 169. Can you see that? It is gorgeous. Who did the recipes for this?

Vesanto Melina

We did them, Cory. We all tested all of them. But we have a little team of testers. And they're based in British Columbia and in San Francisco. And they're really, really careful. And some of them are gourmets and some of them are really simple. I'm kind of on the simple guidelines and Brenda and Cory are more gourmet chefs. And so we end up getting a recipe that is pretty simple to make, but it can look beautiful. And we have suggestions for different options. But our testers went over everything and they said, no, they can't do it that way. And, you know, they'd give us feedback.

Rick Esselstyn

And then look at this on page 147, you have this tangy chickpea smash. Oh yeah. And the photography is brilliant. Cory, did you also do the photography on that?

Cory Davis

I did not, but boy does that look delicious. And that one in particular is one of my favorites.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, I mean, that is something that I could have for lunch. And then look at this peanut edamame noodle salad right here. And then you also have a nice chart Vesanto on the left, and this is 34 grams of protein per two cups. I could throw back probably three or four cups of this.

Vesanto Melina

No wonder you're so strong.

Rick Esselstyn

You're too kind. I need to have you on next week as well. And then look at this, you even have some desserts.

Vesanto Melina

Oh, I know.

Rick Esselstyn

These carrot spice cookies.

Vesanto Melina

No, that's the chocolate ones. They got beans in.

Rick Esselstyn

Them. Oh, absolutely brilliant. Wow.

Vesanto Melina

Yeah, and they're good. I keep them in the freezer, and when I get a chocolate emergency, I go and take one out.

Rick Esselstyn

Those look insane. Well, you guys, this book just was released to the universe, what, about a week ago?

Vesanto Melina

This week, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

This week, wow. And what was your labor of love? How much time did you guys spend writing this?

Vesanto Melina

You know, we send stuff back and forth a lot. So it takes us a while. I'm sure it's not quite a year to write something. And we rip each other's stuff to shreds mercilessly and say, no, and then we had to make it simple. We had guidelines this time. We had to make it for grade eight or 10 level because we also were read by doctors and dieticians and people all over the world, other cultures, but we're also read by people who just want it quick and simple. And that's a real craft. So between us, you can tell that Cory's quite sophisticated in his use of language. You know he really understands the science very deeply and I'm kind of a Johnny Cash thinker I like one syllable words and you know really simple so between us we really come out with something that works.

Rick Esselstyn

Well and Cory you do kind of have this sophisticated air and that turtleneck really seals the deal.

Cory Davis

Hey thanks I'll take it I'll take it as a compliment.

Rick Esselstyn

Absolutely it was delivered as one well you guys I want to thank you so much for spending time really definitively letting people know, where does that protein come from? Are we going to get enough? Is it complete? And you guys have done a bang-up job. I highly recommend people pick up a copy, Plant-Powered Protein, Nutrition Essentials and Dietary Guidelines for All Ages. Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis. You guys, way to go.

Cory Davis

Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh yeah, yeah. So before we go, hit me up with a little plant strong fist bump. Boom. And what's next for you guys? What's next?

Vesanto Melina

Well, they're all coming to Vancouver for the Plant Powered Expo. And I'm actually speaking in Philadelphia, New Jersey, New York, and Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Rick Esselstyn

Wow. Is that just in the next couple of weeks?

Vesanto Melina

No, that'll be in September, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

Oh, in September, got it. Oh, yeah, And great. And how about you, Cory, Mr. Agrologist?

Cory Davis

All right, well, yes, I'll be looking to do more events like the Planted Expo and more podcasts like this. I have a lot to say and can't wait to share what I've learned with the world.

Rick Esselstyn

Yeah, thank you.

Cory Davis

I work a full-time job, always looking for side gigs and any way to spread the word.

Rick Esselstyn

Wonderful. Well, Vesanto and Cory, please tell Brenda Davis that I say hi.

Vesanto Melina

We will, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn

All right, you guys. All right, have a great one. We'll see you next time.

Vesanto Melina

Thank you. Yeah, okay, bye.

Rick Esselstyn

Plant-powered protein is available now, and I'll be sure to put a link to it in today's show notes. It's definitely a book that you want to have on hand the next time, and there will be a next time, someone happens to ask you, where do you get your protein? Thanks for joining today. I'll see you next week. And in the meantime, keep it plan strong. Thank you for listening to the Plan Strong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us. wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. The PlantStrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Kordowich, Amy Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Anne Krile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.